emergency

[onemean]

please help, i think my pond in is big trouble. My pond is fairly new, around 90 days. i had to perform a major water change due to a cave in on saturday. I have around 7500 gallons, 8 koi, from 15-24 inches. around 6 plants. aquascape 5k pump, biofalls and skimmer. 2 large aerators. 25 watt aqua light. yesterday i noticed some green fuzz on my biggest. about 3 small spots. they were on the scars he received from a heron attack. today i see it all over my smallest.(it looks more like white fuzz on the black fish). my ph is 7.5, amon is nill, as is the nitrate and nitrite and phos. my salt level is .008. please help, i love these fish and can't bear to see them die. thanks you all

[koikeepr]

Just as a quick start for you, read this thread (http://www.thepondforum.com/showthread.php?865-Algae-on-my-koi) where someone else who had a similar problem. Does this sound similar to you? Do you have a photo you can perhaps snap?

We will also need to help you with your cave in.

We have several certified Koi Health Advisors on this forum that will help you shortly!

[Carolinagirl]

First, welcome to the board. We will do our best to help.

What you are seeing on your fish is a fungus called Saprolegnia. It is an opportunistic fungus that feeds on decaying things in the pond (like uneaten fish food, etc). It also attaches to damaged areas on fish, which is what you are seeing now. It roots deeply into a fish's tissues and releases toxins, making the fish feel very sick. It must be removed manually.

I have dealt with SAP in the past and here's what I did. First, you will need to round up a few supplies. You will need clove oil to sedate the fish. You will also need some peroxide, q-tips, malachite green (like this http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4745), and some denture powder. You will also need a towel, some bubble wrap and some plastic wrap. To sedate the fish, put 8 drops of clove oil per gallon of water and mix it vigerously. I use an egg whip. Put the fish in this water. It takes a while, maybe 6 to 8 minutes, but he will slow down and finally roll over. It's ok if he is still moving some when you take him out, you don't need him to be fully sedated but you want him out well enough that you can work on him. Place him on the bubble wrap and put a piece of plastic wrap over his eyes so they don't dry out. You will have about 5 minutes to work so work quickly but be thorough since SAP likes to come back. Dip your Q-tips in peroxide and gently scrub the areas of SAP. Don't worry too much if you take off a little skin....the skin is dead anyway, which is why SAP attacked it. Be careful no peroxide runs into his eyes or gills....that can cause serious damage to those tissues. Once the sap is cleaned up, dab some of the malachite green onto the area and seal it up with the denture powder. Return the fish to the pond. I usually hold him in the net over the aeratiors to help him wake up quicker. It takes around 8 minutes for him to swim normally again. Keep a really close eye on the treated areas because SAP has a nasty habit of coming back. Also I'd raise the salt levels in the pond to .3%. The level you have it at is doing nothing. Normally I don't keep any salt in the pond, but salt is useful as a medication and this fish can use it now.

Now I know you didn't ask this, but lets talk about your pond for a minute. 7500 gallons is a really nice sized pond. The volume is an estimate or was it metered when the pond was filled? The reason I am asking is I think your pump and filtration is undersized for this much water. Do you have rocks in the bottom of the pond? If so...that may be one source of your trouble. Bad stuff breeds and collects in those rocks, making it hard to get medical issues under control. There is no way to have a really clean pond with rocks trapping fish poop and uneaten food. But lets get this problem under control and then we can make some suggestions for imporving on your pond. you will need to increase filtration though....a bio-falls is not adequate filtration for a pond that large.

And yes...lisa is right. we do need to talk about your cave in! that can be a very bad thing, especially if it's happening already to such a new pond!

Cindy

[koikeepr]

I agree, Cindy, that the filtration system on this pond seems woefully undersized. Even the UV light can't handle that volume of water. Is there a bottom drain in this pond? How deep is it? Was that the first water change you did in 90 days? The questions in this one will be many onemean, so bear with us while we try to help you. But let's start with your algae issue.

[onemean]

thank you for your help, i hope i can do this. i will try to find a store with the malachite green this morning. clove oil from a supermarket? sorry, i have no clue what denture power is. a cleaner or adhesive? again maybe the supermarket? i will raise my salt up before i go shopping, i dont care if all my plants die. how much time you you estimate they have?

the cave in was caused by a damaged sprinkler line during excavation. hopefully this is solved. i do have rocks on the bottom. i used the aquascapes pond bible book . no bottom drain. this is the second major water change i've had to do . the first was two and a half weeks due to a major waterfall disaster. i thank you for your help. is there someone in my area, eastern long island that can help? i will be willing to pay for your time.

[Kntry]

You can do this.

The clove oil is behind the counter at Wally World, about $4. Denture powder is on the toothbrush isle. People who wear dentures use this to hold them in. It's a powder that you sprinkle on after cleaning the wound to help seal in the meds for a little while. You can probably find Malchalite at a local pet shop. If you can't find it locally, get Mercurochrome.

Without seeing what's going on, they should be fine for a few days. Pics would really help us out.

Unfortunately, this is not uncommon problems for aquascape ponds. We'll work on getting your pond and water in shape after we get the fish healing.

[onemean]

thank you, my heart is breaking

[onemean]

i don't know how to load pics but i will attach them to a flicker site later. i am increasing the salt level now.

[addy1]

i don't know how to load pics but i will attach them to a flicker site later. i am increasing the salt level now.

Go to advanced, click on the little paper clip browse for the picture on your computer and upload. Then click on insert they will show in your post.

[koikeepr]

Here's help with photos/videos:

http://www.thepondforum.com/showthread.php?33-Adding-a-Photo-or-Video-to-your-Posts

To confirm, Wally World is the nickname for Wal-mart! You can find all this stuff there.

[onemean]

i went all over and picked up the supplies. i also bought desa fin from tetra pond. one guy want me to use this. another guy sold me jungle fungus eliminator. i also bought all the items you said to get. will any of these items work as well? it is too late for my little female. she was floating upon my return. i put her in a separate tub with an aerator stone but she has succumb to this fungus. my son is going to load pics of her shortly before her death. i must try to prevent any additional losses. i thank you for your help in advance.

http://i.imgur.com/t6lZ6.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Z2vXZ.jpg

[onemean]

i was able to treat another fish that had 2 small spots. my big one is not going to be easy to catch. there are multiple caves and he is a jumper. almost had him but he jumped a foot and just missed some rocks. i don't want to further stress him out.

[onemean]

added the desa fin an hour ago, the one that i though had just minor spots and he is the one i treated is now dead. all my fish are dying. is there someone in the eastern long island area that can help?

[koikeepr]

Please just stop adding things to the pond that your pond shop has given you. They just want to sell you stuff, and you are probably doing worse for them. Unfortunately, the photos are pretty bad, so your fish could be too far gone to save. Use only what Sandy and the others have advised.

You have rocks in your pond from what I can see in the photos--and this means you have polluted water quality, which has likely led to this problem. You have not commented if you have done regular weekly water changes, and my best suspicion is that this has been another dilemma.

Whether we are able to help any of these fish at this point I do not know, however, when we're done with this--we will need to help you correct your pond so that this won't happen to you again.

Hang in there with us!!

[Kntry]

As Lisa said, do not use any of those products. If you can, do a 50% water change. It may be too late but we'll try to save the rest.

At this point, I need to know what the pH both early morning and late evening, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels are. These are for starters.

We can't work on your pond or filtration right now but we can try to do something with the water quality temporarily.

What are the symptoms? How are they acting? What other obvious things can you see? Are there others with SAP?

When catching fish, try to get your net under them and guide them to the top. As you near the top, raise the side of the net that the fish's head is facing so they can't jump over the net. This takes some practice.

I'm truly sorry you're going through this but Aquascape ponds are not designed with the fish's health in mind, especially koi.

I'll try to keep checking the board more often.

[onemean]

i have been very diligent with my readings. i have been checking them at different times of the day. ph is 7.5 to 8. amon, nitrate, nitrite,and phos is nill. my kh is low but has not caused any ph spikes. the fish i treated today (removed and medicated) went very smooth. he only had 3 small spots on him. he died around an hour after treatment. i feel i killed him. i think they have been stressed to the max. too many water changes in a short amount of time. thanks for the input. please note 5 days ago there was a 70 percent or so change. even though i put stress coat and dechlor in the water, i guess they couldn't handle it.

[Kntry]

You didn't kill him. He was already weak. If you wouldn't have done anything, he would have died anyway. Once they get to a point, they just can't take the treatment.

How are the others acting? Can you answer my questions from the previous post? They're important.

[Meganne]

I am confused??? are you getting your readings from a test kit that uses drops or are you using the little strips?
with a 90 day old pond you should be seeing ammonia and nitrite/nitrate spikes as your pond cycles and the bio flitraion gets started/mature. the size of your pond is a help but having added all the koi at once did no favors to the situation. the fish load should be gradually increased as the new filters start to work.
the large water changes caused by your infrastructure issues may be what has saved your fish thus far. you need to continue small water changes daily right now 10-20%.
did you get a look at the koi's gills? can you check one of the others?

here is a list of the koi clubs... I hope you have one close by, many koi kichi are willing to drive a couple hours to lend a hand.
pond side help is best but we will help all we can here at the forum.

http://www.akca.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=122&Itemid=192

[PaNancy]

added the desa fin an hour ago, the one that i though had just minor spots and he is the one i treated is now dead. all my fish are dying. is there someone in the eastern long island area that can help?

Don't know if anyone else caught this, and I am NO KHA but I have used the Desa Fin and if I remember rightly it is NOT to be mixed with salt. Now like I said I'm not sure, but got me to thinking is all.

Hmmm not sure how to do quotes here either. :dunno:

[Kntry]

Nancy, you may be right. I don't know anything about Desa Fin.

Good points, Meg. The pond could have cycled in 90 days since the temps are hot. It's usually 6-8 weeks but you may be on to something,

[onemean]

yes the reading are from a kit. i have also brought the water to a shop that testes it the very same way and have received the same results. i think i killed the one i removed from the water. i may have gotten some peroxide on his gills. i did not think so but after i swabbed his fungus i laid him down in a shallow tub. maybe some of the peroxide got into him. i am sick over his death but my remaining fish are still alive at this point. i am going to leave them be for a few days. i have stressed them plenty in the last week. as far as the salt and desa fin goes there was no warning and the pond shop owner and i discussed elevating salt level. so i hope this is not true. i have buried the dead and did not look at their gills. i thank you all for your advise.

[Kntry]

I don't mean to badger you but how are the others acting? What do they look like? Was the testing done with strips or the liquid drop test?

[onemean]

They are holding on. It looks as the desa fin. Has help my biggest fish. Some of the fuzz on his top fin has disappted. They are very still. One of the remaining four will eat. The test results are not from strips. I would lik to add somestress coat. Is this ok

[Kntry]

No, don't add anything. Is there any way you can take a good pic of at least the worst one? I need to see what's going on. Your descriptions aren't really telling me anything.

If you can't take a better pic, can you give me a better description? What color is the "fuzz"? Are the bones showing? Are there red areas? How much area is covered in fuzz and/or red? What else have you put in the pond in the last month? Fish, plants or medicine? Were they quarantined? You really need to give me great details without pics.

[onemean]

no bones are showing. the fuzz was white with my black one(deceased) and green with my white one. the one that i killed was white and he had white fuzz in three small spots. I will attempt to photograph the big one with the green fuzz. The fuzz is near some wounds he received from a heron attack some time ago. the remaining fish are very still, one will eat and i cannot find my butterfly. he does like to hide so i'm not super worried, yet. i have many caves for them to hide. i do not see any fuzz on the others. there were no red areas on the dead black one pictured. there were no red areas on the one i killed. i have maybe 6 plants in total. i had not used any medicine before the desi fin. just salt and slime coat in the past.


here is the history of these fish. i bought the equipment second hand. the previous owner had these fish. i bought them in april and put them in my existing pond. it was around 700 gallons. i expanded my pond to the size it is now, roughly 19 by 20 average 3 ft deep. all my previous fish were killed by the heron so it was empty. the new fish lived there until i was ready to demolish the old pond.while i demolished the old pond the fish temporary lived in my hot tub for a few weeks. once i had the new pond ready. i waited around a week before the transfer. i was able to save most of that water and transfer it. the fish seemed very happy. they were eating ravenously , jumping and chasing each other. my black female(pictured and deceased) laid eggs and they hatched. two weeks later i turned on my sprinkler system and a damaged line caved in my waterfall and i had to replace 50 percent of the water. a week and a half later we had 3 inches of rain in an hour or so and the second cave in in a different area occurred. again, i had to replace nearly 70 percent of the water. this it what i believe has caused my problems. thanks you

[koikeepr]

How often do you do water changes?

[Meganne]

changing homes three times, heron striks and injuries, spawning, large water changes, large rains, jumping(is not a sign of happyness but a sign of trouble) new pond starting up there for more fluxuating water conditions. Not one thing stressed your fish but a collection of much. the fungus you see is oppotunist as are many of the "bugs" our fish catch, they are always pressent waiting for a situation to weaken a koi's immune system.
though you do need MF to irradicate the fungus that has taken hold, (if the med you are using has that, it will be listed as an active ingrediant) stable and excellent water conditions are the also what is need for your fish to recover. additional air helps too. keep up on small water changes

do not add stress coat at this point, just something with MF green and good water. we don't want medicine soup!

you did not kill you fish, it was on the edge already.
when we get past this situation and get things stable we can help you get the pond set up better.

[Luvmypond]

When the walls caved in, did any dirt get in the pond? Maybe some lawn treatment got in the there. Just a thought. Hope it gets cleared up soon for you.

[onemean]

to all, hopefully the last 4 can hang on. i still haven't seen the butterfly. hopefully she didn't pass in a cave. they are beautiful fish and this has been a horrific month! the guy that sold me the tetra fin said it should be ok in a week. hope he is right. i will look to see if it includes green, i don't think it does.

as for the cave in , yes dirt did enter the pond. it may have had contaminants on it but i would not know for sure.

also i tried to make a more accurate measurement of the pond. i think it may be closer to 6500 not 7500.

the tetra pond treatment i used has formaldehyde, quinine-hydrochloride. sounds like some ready bad stuff.

[Kntry]

Now we're getting somewhere. With the conditions you just posted, the jumping was probably caused by wide fluctuations in pH.

Again, with these conditions and the spawn with now water change, the water quality had to be very poor. When this happens, as Meg said the bugs always present multiply very quickly. They're always present but in numbers that the fishes immune system can fight off. Kinda like you being around someone with a cold but you don't get it because your immune system is functioning properly.

Pics would still help but this is what needs to be done for now. Do not add any other chemicals unless you have or can get ProFormC. This can NOT be used with salt. If you can't get this, keep the salt at .3%. 3 lbs. per 100 gallons of water. Do 15% water changes every other day for 3 changes then twice a week. You'll have to add some salt back after each water change. To change water, take water out then refill, don't just let the pond overflow.

The fish with SAP. You're going to have to do the same treatment. Put him under with Clove Oil, wipe the SAP off with Peroxide on a Q-tip, add antibiotic cream or Mercurochrome and denture powder. You didn't kill the other fish. The fish was too weak already. You're going to have to take action to save the ones you have. When you take this fish out to clean the SAP, gently raise the Operculm (gill plate) and look at the gills. Are they dark red like raw steak, do they have gray patches or fraying on the ends?

If you have city water, add dechlor for each water change.

Till we can work on your pond, get the heaviest fishing line you can find and string it around the pond about 10-12" off the ground. This will keep the birds out of your pond. They can't see it and when their legs hit the line, they get scared and leave. Birds will not leave a pond until it is empty and this is the cheapest and most effective way to get rid of them.

[onemean]

hi, thank you for your help. The ph never rose above 8 and never below 7.5. i have been diligent with my testing. several times a day at different times. the heron attack on the big one was with the previous owner. i have fishing line everywhere, driveway alert buzzers and the scarecrow motion sprinkler. hopefully this will keep him away.

[Meganne]

no bones are showing. the fuzz was white with my black one(deceased) and green with my white one. the one that i killed was white and he had white fuzz in three small spots. I will attempt to photograph the big one with the green fuzz. The fuzz is near some wounds he received from a heron attack some time ago. the remaining fish are very still, one will eat and i cannot find my butterfly. he does like to hide so i'm not super worried, yet. i have many caves for them to hide. i do not see any fuzz on the others. there were no red areas on the dead black one pictured. there were no red areas on the one i killed. i have maybe 6 plants in total. i had not used any medicine before the desi fin. just salt and slime coat in the past.


here is the history of these fish. i bought the equipment second hand. the previous owner had these fish. i bought them in april and put them in my existing pond. it was around 700 gallons. i expanded my pond to the size it is now, roughly 19 by 20 average 3 ft deep. all my previous fish were killed by the heron so it was empty. the new fish lived there until i was ready to demolish the old pond.while i demolished the old pond the fish temporary lived in my hot tub for a few weeks. once i had the new pond ready. i waited around a week before the transfer. i was able to save most of that water and transfer it. the fish seemed very happy. they were eating ravenously , jumping and chasing each other. my black female(pictured and deceased) laid eggs and they hatched. two weeks later i turned on my sprinkler system and a damaged line caved in my waterfall and i had to replace 50 percent of the water. a week and a half later we had 3 inches of rain in an hour or so and the second cave in in a different area occurred. again, i had to replace nearly 70 percent of the water. this it what i believe has caused my problems. thanks you

after re-reading this I think your fish were over the edge from stress befor the move to the new pond. how in the world you managed to keep eight good sized koi alive in 700 gallons and then a hot for an extended period is a wonder in itself.
get the rock out of the pond, add at least a retro bottom drain and lets fix this new pond befor more issues arise.

[onemean]

i watched them very carefully, they had no sores, marks or fuzz on any of them. my water was checked 2 times a day and was perfect. they were also heavily filtered. i moved them before the heat set in, although it has not been hot here yet. tons of rain!

i wanted to check on the salt level you said 3 percent? it this correct. i currently have 1.2 percent.

my butterfly has finally returned to sight. she has been jumping so now i am nervous. i checked my water at 5am and just now. 7.5 ph, everything else is nill. i now have two fish eating and acting somewhat normal. they are still scared.

i will remove the rocks but i feel i should wait a few more days. they have been through a huge amount of stress and me in the pond will help. i am really pissed about the aquascape pond thing. i sure putting a drain in will now be a nightmare. i though it made sense not to risk it as eventually it would fail.

one more note, my biggest one with all the fuzz looks quite a bit better. the fuzz on his top fin looks all gone and the ones on his sides are about 50 percent smaller. he is quite scared and i haven't been able to photo him yet. will keep trying.

[Kntry]

Do you have 1.2% of .12%? There is a HUGE difference. If you have 1.2%, that is more than enough to kill them. Decimals are very important.

Lets talk before you start removing rocks.

[onemean]

hi, can i call you, or you call me please. 631 325 call collect. alex

[Kntry]

It was great talking with you, Alex. We'll get this worked out, just hang in there.

For 7000 gallons, you need to add 70 lbs. of salt to achieve .1% salinity. You need to be at .3% so you'll need to add 210 lbs of salt. It's the 40 lb. blue bag of solar salt by the water softeners at Lowes or HD. Add 1/3 each day for 3 days to gradually bring the level up.

Continue doing 10% water changes every other day for now and lets see what they do.

Try not to stress. Keeping water has a steep learning curve. You're going about it the right way. I think you just got a lot of very stressed fish to start with.

[onemean]

thanks ever so much! i really do appreciate your time and efforts. i am scared to add anything else but i will do so per your instructions. thanks again!!!!! i guess i figured out my meter. it reads in ppt not ppm. hence the decimal error. i'm not sure who is stressing more, me or my fish!

[Kntry]

You're the one who sees what's going on in person. If you think they are getting better, hold off on adding the salt. That's a call you have to make. The salt isn't going to hurt them. If you're not sure of your water volume, add less salt.

[onemean]

thanks, i am going to add the salt. as i stated my butterfly was jumping and flashing. unless the desi fin cannot be used with the salt i see no harm. i will do it slowly and check it with my meter. thanks again!

[DCinKS]

Since you have a salt meter, if you monitor the exact amount of salt you add and recheck your salt level, you may be able to more accurately estimate your water volume. Kntry probably knows how to figure it, but you could find a formula online too. Good luck with your fishies. Looks like you are in good hands. I had some problems in the beginning also, and everyone here has been very helpful. DC

[Will]

We try. This is Sandy's department, for sure. Cindy could help as well, but I think Sandy has got this one.

[Carolinagirl]

To calculate pond volume by using salt, use this formula...it is highly accurate. This is Ray Jordan's method.......

The difference between percentage and parts per thousand is that 0.1% equals 1 ppt. i.e. a ppt reading is 10 times the percentage reading. (Percent is just another way of saying parts per hundred).

The simple formula for calculating pond volume using salinity change:

Salt Method: An alternative method to calculate pond volume is accomplished by adding a known weight of salt and testing for salt concentration (salinity) change. This method requires an accurate salt test kit* as follows:

1. Test a pond water sample for salt following the instructions of your test kit. Record this concentration in parts per thousand. For our purposes let’s say it is 0.05ppt

2. Add 1 pound of salt per estimated 125 gallons of pond volume. Let’s say we believe our pond is 5000 gallons so we add 40 pounds of salt.

3. Wait until all salt has dissolved plus two hours.

4. Test a pond water sample for the new salt concentration. Let’s say the new concentration is 1.05 ppt giving us an increased salinity of 1.0 ppt

5. Calculate the pond volume using this formula:

( P / T ) x 120 = V

V= pond volume in gallons

P = pounds of salt added

T = actual concentration CHANGE in parts per thousand (or change in % times 10)

[Kntry]

Will, I don't know much compared to most. It's very hard to help when you can't actually see what's going on but in a lot of cases, there's no one close to help so you have to take a chance.

One thing that is very important for everyone to remember is once you choose a treatment method, don't mix and match. That's worse than doing nothing. I don't care if you choose to do what I say or someone else, just follow through without mixing different protocols together.

[koikeepr]

I agree! You could be using meds or ingredients that don't work well together or could actually create a deadly combo.

[onemean]

makes perfect sense. i did use the deso fin as i had stated. i also did try to remove and treat my fish(at least the ones i could catch.) i am slowly per your instructions raising my salt levels i'm around .18 and should be at close to .20 before tomorrow am. btw, thanks for the tip on where to get the salt. i was paying 10 fold.


good news?

my butterfly has been swimming like i have never seen her in some time, eating, hanging with the rest. not hiding, no jumping, one flash that I've noticed but seems much better.

my second biggest hadn't eaten in a week. he surfaced today to have a little lunch. still on the still side but he's back in his favorite spot . he likes the waterfall. a little swimming but not to much.

my big guy looks about the same, still no eating, spooks easy but looks like the fuzz is not growing, about the same as yesterday, but better in general.

my last medium one hasn't seemed to be affected in any way. eating like a pig and pushing the others out of the way. very poor manners!

a very genuine thanks from the bottom of my heart. as soon as my fish are all better i want to work on rock removal and a real filter set up. thanks!

[onemean]

To calculate pond volume by using salt, use this formula...it is highly accurate. This is Ray Jordan's method.......

The difference between percentage and parts per thousand is that 0.1% equals 1 ppt. i.e. a ppt reading is 10 times the percentage reading. (Percent is just another way of saying parts per hundred).

The simple formula for calculating pond volume using salinity change:

Salt Method: An alternative method to calculate pond volume is accomplished by adding a known weight of salt and testing for salt concentration (salinity) change. This method requires an accurate salt test kit* as follows:

1. Test a pond water sample for salt following the instructions of your test kit. Record this concentration in parts per thousand. For our purposes let’s say it is 0.05ppt

2. Add 1 pound of salt per estimated 125 gallons of pond volume. Let’s say we believe our pond is 5000 gallons so we add 40 pounds of salt.

3. Wait until all salt has dissolved plus two hours.

4. Test a pond water sample for the new salt concentration. Let’s say the new concentration is 1.05 ppt giving us an increased salinity of 1.0 ppt

5. Calculate the pond volume using this formula:

( P / T ) x 120 = V

V= pond volume in gallons

P = pounds of salt added

T = actual concentration CHANGE in parts per thousand (or change in % times 10)

thanks for that! i am adding a gallon at a time and its raising it .001 per gallon. i will use this formula to get a closer quote of my pond. thank you

[koikeepr]

I am thrilled to hear you are seeing improvements! Our KHA's on our site are truly experts at what they do and the advice they provide. I'm so happy for you. When you've turned the corner with this, we will help you get your water quality ship-shape so you don't experience issues such as these in the future.

[Meganne]

wonderful news! you are getting there.
believe me we have all been there and the learning never ends, this hobby keeps you humble.

[Kntry]

Alex, I'm thrilled! You're a good koi Papa. They will repay you with years of splashing and sucking air looking for food. LOL

Keep up the good work and don't be shy, ask questions or call.

[onemean]

salt is now at 2.5 should be all the way there by tomorrow am. how long should i leave it at this number?

more good news. my big guy and his friend that had been very still have now joined the others1 they are all eating and appear happy. thank you so much.

[stroppy]

now that is good news Alex :)

[Kntry]

.25%:big smile: Remember those decimals. You're teaching others by what you're going through.

Leave the salt at .3% for about a week then you can start diluting it with water changes and not adding additional salt. Do this as long as the fish seems to be improving.

Good job!

[onemean]

Thanks ever so much. i am now at .3 and will do a small water change this weekend and bring the level back to .3 afterward. all the remaining fish are very active, all are eating like crazy and again are quite social. my big guy has lost quite a bit of the sap but some still does remain. I must admit i am scared to try to remove it manually. is there another possible way to rid him of this? medicated food? etc. the shop owner that sold me the desi fin said it could take up to 2 weeks, tomorrow will be a week . i will be changing the water in a small amount this weekend so i will be diluting the meds. any thoughts? thanks, Alex

[Kntry]

I've only had SAP on one fish and it was after a spawning injury. I knew my water quality was excellent so I just watched the fish. It went away on it's own. I didn't add anything to the pond or treat her. For now, lets just watch him very closely. As long as it doesn't get worse and appears to be going away slowly, you're on the right track.

Keep up the water changes and after next week, stop adding salt to slowly dilute it out altogether.

[Appliance Guy]

Any update? Poor guy was tryin so badly, it was makin me hurt.

I read the thread entirely and had some thoughts to share.

I think as many fish were saved as possible, given the circumstances. It was just a tough situation and he was unprepared. Here in Florida, I'm prepared for hurricanes- mounted window coverings, fuel, food, water, batteries, etc... These are things I have now, ready to go, without more than 2 hours notice. I have these things ready, whether I need them or not. I am prepared.

Being new to Koi keeping, I am unprepared to deal with what Alex had. Any advice on must have's in order to be prepared for such an event? I know that no one can be prepared for everything, but Alex lacked some basics. Maybe this would be a topic for another thread?

My second thought is that from the beginning, we did not have complete information, in particular the actual malady the fish were suffering. My concern is that with a person that clearly cannot discern the malady, sometimes the treatment is worse than doing nothing. To add further confusion was that he was deperate enough to try anything and many things will be offered. Not the forums fault, but I'd liked to have seen him be urged to slow down. I know at one point he had a verbal conversation and maybe it was addressed there. But I just saw the poor guys agony and felt that he was getting advice from everywhere. Again, too little (much?)- too late.

I think the circumstances were great enough that no medicine/treatment was going to cure it. His conditions needed to be cured first.

[Kntry]

You're right. Doing nothing would be better than throwing everything into the pond when you don't know what the problem is, shotgun treatment. But when it's your fish, you're desperate to do something. You can't just stand around and do nothing, watching them slowly die.

The most important thing is to get the correct information from the start.

I have a Medicine Chest thread stickied at the top of this board.

[onemean]

All my fish are doing well! my big guy had a major color change. his head has turned black from white. his last sap spot is still there and hopefully will be gone soon. i have been laid up due to a surgery and won't be able to work on my pond for a few weeks. i need to clear up my water as its cloudy but my numbers are still good. my son has been changing about 10 percent of the water weekly. i wanted to have my salt at .3 for the week as Sandy recommended but the hospital and heavy rains prevented this. I am not going to add any additional fish until i have worked out the filter issues. I want to buy a better filtration system and remove all the rocks in the pond.


Sandy mentioned the right advise from the start, how right she is. I actually bought and paid for a book to build my pond the wrong way! I had such good intentions when i expanded my pond and wanted to do everything the right way! everything I did turned out wrong and I will have to make many corrective measures but I will get it right. Thanks to all for your concerns and efforts, they are appreciated!

[Kntry]

I'm so glad they're all doing well. Don't worry about the salt. They should be fine without it.

You get well so you can take care of them.

We all start off with at least 1 bad pond. The idea is to learn from our mistakes and move on. You did more than most, including myself. I didn't do any research when I built my first 3 ponds. 22 years ago, I didn't have a computer so I had no idea there was a right or wrong way of doing things.

You're on the right track now. Just remember, you need a quarantine pond for the new fish unless they all come from the same person.

[Will]

Alex, I hope you get up and around with no further issues, for you or your fish. You have definitely taken the bull by the horns here, and are doing all you can to do right by your fish. I wish you continued good luck with your pond, just keep listening to Sandy, you'll be allright.

[koikeepr]

I am thrilled you jumped on and updated us, as I was wondering how things were going. Am thrilled to hear you've reversed the issues you were having and things are now back on track.

We have all owned or built a pond that was built incorrectly at some point, as Sandy correctly says. The goal is to learn from the problems and fix them so we don't experience the issues again.

We'd love to help you do that, and if you're a bit handy we can help you DIY a filter. We have many posted on our stickies in the DIY forum.

[Appliance Guy]

Very good to hear from you. Take care of yourself first and many blessings towards you. Also, glad to hear your fish are better. I was in agony just reading the posts, so I am thrilled you recovered. Stick with these guys, they'll guide you correctly. As for reconstructing the pond- we learn from our mistakes as well as others. Your experience has help me learn from your mistakes, so thank you. But, no, the check is not in the mail.

Get well soon! We're pullin for ya!

[onemean]

appreciate the well wishes. i am amazed at the transformation of my largest guy. he now has nearly all the sap gone. along with his new black head his has several metallic spots of copper colored patches, about half the size of a dime.most of his pink is now black. very pretty.all this change in around 10 days time. very cool.

[koikeepr]

Fantastic! So glad to have gotten this update!! Stick with us!

[Appliance Guy]

Nice. Sounds like you're still enjoyin them. Keep us posted.

[onemean]

hey all, all the sap is all gone off my big guy and the rest are doing very well! they are very hungry and active. i have been concerned over my ph. for the first time ever it is 9. it has been unusually hot for the last week. my amon and nitrite is still nill. my ph is normally 8. it has been stable so i am not overly worried but i was thinking if 9 is the top of the testing parameters maybe its higher than 9. how do i know? i have done some 10 percent water changes. i was going to start removing my rocks next week as my knee is much better and i can go in with the crew but don't want to stress them out if the ph is too high.

[onemean]

forgot to thank Sandy and the rest of the gang for the support and advise. appreciate it!!!!!!

[Kntry]

You're welcome! I'm glad they're doing well.

You can order a high pH test kit that goes up to 10. Unless it goes over 9 and is unstable, I wouldn't try to change it. Have you tested your source water?

[onemean]

yes my tap is around 8. also is there a less expensive way to treat the chlorine? i always add more than necessary so i don't have to worry. i use quite a bit of dechlorinator and its adding up. thanks

[Meganne]

my pH stays in the high 8.-plus range

[Will]

What time of day did you take the pH reading? It changes over the course of each day. Try taking it at first light, then at sundown tomorrow, let us know the #s

[onemean]

the ph was 9 or perhaps higher as this is as high as the test kit goes @ 9 am today and the same @6 pm last night. i have ordered a ph meter a more accurate reading. all the fish look good and the lillies are in bloom. it has been a month since my major trouble and would like to add a few additional fish but i will not until my ph is stable. my kh was low and i would like to raise it. how should i proceed. i have never had a ph issue before but when i read about the ph crashes i become very worried. thank you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kntry]

Your pH is stable just not low.

Go to your local feed store and buy a 40lb. bag of Agricultural Gypsum. I have no idea how much to tell you to add. Just throw in a couple of cups and wait about an hour then test. Get an idea of how much the alkalinity is coming up based on what you added and add more accordingly. Just do it over a few days. Maybe raise the alkalinity 2-3 drops per day.

When you get more fish, quarantine them!

[Luvmypond]

Are you sure your tests are good? I would take the water to a fish store and have them check it to be sure. It's free.

[Will]

All they use are multi test strips, a very unreliable (yet cheap) way to test. A reagent test kit, used properly, will give you much better results.

[Kntry]

His test kit is new and he's used it a lot so I'm confident in his numbers. My ponds used to run at 9 year round.

[Luvmypond]

All they use are multi test strips, a very unreliable (yet cheap) way to test. A reagent test kit, used properly, will give you much better results.

Yea, those strips are useless. Our LFS uses API.

[Will]

Yea, those strips are useless. Our LFS uses API.

:wow:

[Luvmypond]

:wow:

It's a fish store that mainly sells saltwater fish. Are you picking on me tonight? :smash head:

[Will]

Nope. I wasn't being sarcastic, Doreen, I'm really amazed that there is a store out there that uses a decent test. Then again, all I have around here is Petsmart, so I hate it. You're up late tonight, must be having trouble sleeping, too. I hgave got to get to bed, Steve'll be up in a few hours.;-D

[Kntry]

I've never seen a pet store use drops either.

[Will]

Well I'm glad its not just me.

[onemean]

i have the drops and i also have a meter. The ph has gone to its norm of 8-8.5 after the weather cooled down. So all is good. my water looks great after adding the additional 30 watts of uv. My 2 babies from my deceased female are now around 4-5 inches and one looks like her mom so I'm happy. They have become less shy and one is even swimming with the big boys. thanks, Alex

[Will]

That's great, Alex.

[onemean]

Hello all,
I wanted to give a quick update on the state of my pond. I haven't lost a fish since this disaster. My water is amazing! Steve from High Desert set me up with four s and g filters a big uv light and pump. I have added a retro bottom drain and removed most of the rocks. I had to leave some to cover the caves. I now have 12 fish in total and they are are health and always hungry! I don't think I will add anymore unless I find a really special looking one. We have inherited a goldfish from a carnival. He is 6 years old and had outgrown his tank. My biggest one is constantly changing colors and has been sap free for a long time. I really love my pond and only wish is was even bigger! I think of all the kindness and support I was given and realize how lucky I was to find this forum. Thanks and be well, Alex

[Meganne]

Alex that is fantastic!!!!
great to have you check in and up date us. I am sure your thread here has also helped others.

[KatieVL]

Thanks for sharing your success story! We often never hear back about how things turn out.

[Will]

Really. So glad all is well with your pond, and so glad you updated us. As Katie said, we rarely hear back from folks after they get fixed, great to hear.

[Kntry]

As the others said, thanks for letting us know your success story. A lot of times, people come looking for help but don't like the answers they get. They continue on doing what they've always done and can't understand why their fish are dying.

Kudos to you!

We'd love to see pics.

I was just re-reading a few pages and saw that your question about a cheaper way to dechlor was missed. Order Sodium Theosulfate over the internet. It is very cheap and goes a long way.

[Will]

ClorAm-X is good, and pretty cheap, too, if you're concerned about ammonia or chloramines.

[addy1]

Yeah happy for you! Glad your pond is doing great.

[Appliance Guy]

I love success stories. And hats off to Steve at High Desert Koi- I guarantee Steve spent much time with Alex working out the design and explaining the set-up. I know Steve did that for me too!

WE WANT PICS! WE WANT PICS! WE WANT PICS!