Please help

[Quincy]

Please can anybody help? In the last week I have lost more than 20 koi fish I want to help save the remaining fish. It seemed very odd because lots of the fish died at almost the same time 5 one day, 5 the next etc and there didn't appear to be anything wrong with them. I noticed some of the smaller fish had ulcers and one has a white substance around it's scales (shown on picture attached) the water flow is fine and I had the water tested and that is also fine. The pond is 5000 litres outdoor and the water temperature today was 6 degrees centigrade.

[Kntry]

Welcome to the Board.

We need more information, please.

How many fish and what size are in this pond? 1300 gallons is not very large for koi, especially with the number you said have already died. How old is the pond? When is the last time you added new fish and were they quarantined before adding them. If so, how?

I need you to post the water results for pH, Nitrites, Nitrates, ammonia, at the very least. Fine does not tell me anything. What type of filtration do you have? Do you do water changes? Have you added any chemicals to the pond?

It looks like the fish in the pic is shedding it's slime coat but I need more information.

[ricshaw]

Crowded pond... water tested fine... big possibility of parasites.

[Quincy]

There was about 25 fish in my pond I have 2 large koi about 16in and the rest were fairly small koi and goldfish.
The pond is about 6 years old apart from losing the odd fish never had a problem like it before.
The last fish I added were over a year ago only small goldfish I don't have a clue whether they have been quarantined but I did get them from good pet shops that knew a lot about koi.
I don't know what the water test results were because I get them done at a pet shop and they didn't tell me anything other than that the results were completely normal and I have done a water change since then which was two days ago but we don't normally do a water change.
I haven't added any chemicals other than for the water change to dechlorinate it with aquasafe.
Filtration: pumped up to a high level box which allows the water to fall by gravity the box has 2 sprinkler bars, 2 UV filters and is filled with lava rock fine grade (1in) to the top and course grade (2in) to the bottom half of the tank.

[addy1]

Can you pick up a test kit, test the water yourself, maybe 10-15 dollars and let us know what readings you get. Or tell the pet store you must know the readings, they should tell you, just write them down. Everything you can tell us will help with figuring out what the problem is. It would help to know the exact ammonia, ph, nitrite, nitrate etc levels.

[Quincy]

Okay I will try an go back to the pet shop tomorrow to find out what the readings are and let you know thanks for the help.

[koikeepr]

What about water changes, Quincy? How often do you do those??

[Kntry]

Most pet shops use the cheap strip tests. They are not accurate. You need to order a drop, reagent, test kit. They're about $18 on line.

The pond is extremely overcrowded. In 1300 gallons, you shouldn't have more than 4 koi and maybe 10 goldies, tops. I know this isn't what you want to hear but if you don't find homes for some of them, Mother Nature will continue to do it for you.

The more the fish grow, they exponentially put off more waste and more ammonia. This causes the water quality to deteriorate which causes the fish to get sick and die.

Can you catch the Chagoi in the pic and feel it? Does it feel smooth and silky or like sandpaper?

[ricshaw]

What about testing for parasites?

See How to Scrape a Koi (http://www.thepondforum.com/showthread.php/2492-How-to-Scrape-a-Koi).

[Quincy]

The pet shop I go to does use the drop reagent I will see if i can get it done later today.
I only have about 7 fish left now anyway and I will try an feel the koi.

[koikeepr]

Quincy, you still haven't commented on your water changes. How often do you do them?

[Quincy]

I did a water change 3 days ago but we don't normally do water changes. The time before that was 6 months ago.

[Will]

He said he had recently done one, but has not done them regularly. Also, Quincy, you did not specify how much water was changed, as in 20%, 40%, etc. This presents many problems for fish in general, and koi in particular. Water changes are a necessary part of upkeep for a koi pond, and need to be maintained at a weekly level of 20%, at minimum. Before we even check for parasites, which are likely, the water maintenance and quality need some upgrades.

With the stock situation and a lack of water changes, there is no possible way that nitrates were even near tolerable, although these would not kill the fish, they would make it much easier for anything else to. Owning a pond, though, you really need to get a freshwater test kit of your own, I would certainly not trust someone else to do my testing for me. You need accurate test values for both your source water and your pond water, the most important being pH, ammonia and nitrite, followed by nitrate, carbonate hardness (kh), and general hardness (gh). These will get you started.

We haven't talked about pond construction at all yet, and that will give a much better idea about parasites and water quality (not the test numbers here, but dissolved solids and bacteria, etc). How is the pond designed? How does the filter get water? Do you add air to the water, and if so, how? Is there a bottom drain? Do you have a smooth bottom, or are there rocks in it? How big is your filter, and how much media (lava rock) is in it?

For right now, the best things you can do are to add aeration to the water if you don't have this, and get on a weekly 20% water change schedule (500L every week removed from the pond, then added back to the pond, along with a dose of dechlor suitable for 500L of water). This is something that needs to be continued, in addition to any other treatments to the pond to treat the fish, and the sooner, the better. Any aeration will help right now, but a real aerator is needed to get a sufficient amount of air into the water.

Photographs would be of immense value in helping you here. Photographs of your filter, your pond, your UV, even your reagent tests - any would be much better than none. We will attempt to help you, and we have many experts on koi culture and pond design here, but it might be different from what you've thought was a well maintained pond in the past. Read through some of the posts, and some of the DIY section, to get more of an idea of proper filtration and water maintenance. http://www.thepondforum.com/showthread.php/211-FILTRATION-BASICS This also has great information to give you a better idea of how to avoid problems in the future.

[Will]

Oh, also, what kind of pump do you use, submersible or external? What exact type and flow rate? What kind of water return do you have, and I believe I already asked about how the water is supplied to the pump. These questions will begin to really open the problem up for us to figure out.

[ricshaw]

Oh, also, what kind of pump do you use, submersible or external? What exact type and flow rate? What kind of water return do you have, and I believe I already asked about how the water is supplied to the pump. These questions will begin to really open the problem up for us to figure out.

So far most of the questions asked are directed towards water quality. Poor water quality causes stress and opens the door for disease.

Diagnosing a disease on the internet (or over the phone) is not reliable. But we can get an idea by descriptions and looking at pictures.

"The presence of most parasites can only be diagnosed unequivocally through microscope examinations of skin or gill scrape."
On symptoms typical of parasitic infection: "Slime disease is provoked by the constant irritating effect of parasites on goblet cells, causing excess mucus production."

On Koi Herpes Virus (KHV) symptoms picture caption: "Koi affected by the Koi herpes Virus. Mucous filament is seen all over the body."

The above quotes are from the book The Koi Doctor by veterinarian Maarten Lammens.

[ricshaw]

http://www.japanesewatergardens.com/images/ww/book01.jpg http://www.lagunakoi.com/UserFiles/KoiDoctor-I.jpg http://www.professionalwebdesigners.co.uk/kudoskoi/productimg/book_1_1.jpg

[koikeepr]

Not doing regular weekly water changes is a sure fire reason for fish that are in this condition. Think of your pond as a toilet in your home--the family is using the toilet, but no one ever flushes for 6 months. Now consider that your fish are swimming in this environment. Inevitably they get sick and will die because they are being poisoned by their own urine/feces, food decaying, debris that lands in the pond, etc.

If it were my pond, I would do three 20% water changes over the course of three days to get as much of that toxic water out of there (but over a small time period). You must then continue to do at least a 20% water change every week (it's like flushing the toilet).

Please do provide your water parameters when you get them, as Kntry is a KHA (Koi Health Advisor) and can be immensely helpful in a situation like this. I hope you are able to save the other fish!

[ricshaw]

I found this and thought that it was interesting.

This may be related or totally unrelated to Quincy's problem.

From How it all started....
(http://www.koikeeperunleashed.com/index.php?pageid=crouching_tiger)
http://www.koikeeperunleashed.com/images/khv_chagoi2.jpg

[ricshaw]

Not doing regular weekly water changes is a sure fire reason for fish that are in this condition. Think of your pond as a toilet in your home--the family is using the toilet, but no one ever flushes for 6 months. Now consider that your fish are swimming in this environment. Inevitably they get sick and will die because they are being poisoned by their own urine/feces, food decaying, debris that lands in the pond, etc.
If it were my pond, I would do three 20% water changes over the course of three days to get as much of that toxic water out of there (but over a small time period). You must then continue to do at least a 20% water change every week (it's like flushing the toilet).
Please do provide your water parameters when you get them, as Kntry is a KHA (Koi Health Advisor) and can be immensely helpful in a situation like this. I hope you are able to save the other fish!

Fix the water quality issue and this will cure the fish?

[Will]

Fix the water quality issue and this will cure the fish?
No one is saying that, Ric. What she is saying is this: If water quality is bad, how can you tell what the problem really is? Further, if the problem is disease, and that problem is cured, yet there is still poor water quality, what stops the same thing from ocurring again? It's kind of like living in a cigarette smoke clouded environment at all times and doing chemotherapy for lung cancer. Why bother? Or, more accurately, drinking from your septic tank and taking alka seltzer, but still drinking from the tank. The environmental problems have got to change first, to even be able to accurately diagnose any other problem.

[ricshaw]

No one is saying that, Ric. What she is saying is this: If water quality is bad, how can you tell what the problem really is? Further, if the problem is disease, and that problem is cured, yet there is still poor water quality, what stops the same thing from ocurring again? It's kind of like living in a cigarette smoke clouded environment at all times and doing chemotherapy for lung cancer. Why bother? Or, more accurately, drinking from your septic tank and taking alka seltzer, but still drinking from the tank. The environmental problems have got to change first, to even be able to accurately diagnose any other problem.

The original question is; "Please can anybody help? In the last week I have lost more than 20 koi fish I want to help save the remaining fish."

Okay, I think we most agree that there is a water quality issue and a significant water change would be a benefit. :duh:

You are not going to be able to "accurately diagnose" the disease without testing.

I am trying to address the "I want to help save the remaining fish."

[Quincy]

I have noticed after the water change they seem to be looking better. I found a large silver koi dead this morning looks like he had been there for a couple of days but i noticed when I removed him from the tank he was very slimy but didn't have the white on him like the first pics but had some ulcers shown on pics below

[Will]

What kind of pond floor is there, Quincy? Were the ulcers on the side that was lying on the bottom, or spread around?

That's a good thing, looking better is always better than not. I'd listen to koikeepr's advice, and do another 20% tomorrow, and the next day. That will surely help, but we can see if there are further symptoms.

Any word on my earlier questions?

[Will]

Oh, the red veins you are seeing can be signs of several things. I'll let Sandy (kntry) expound on that one, as she has more experience by far with KHA work (I'm still a student).

[Will]

Fix the water quality issue and this will cure the fish?
For Ricshaw: It might.

[Quincy]

The ulcers were spread around. I have a plastic lining in the pond we don't have rocks or anything like that. Bare in mind the fish in the picture had been dead for a couple of days.

[ricshaw]

The ulcers were spread around. I have a plastic lining in the pond we don't have rocks or anything like that. Bare in mind the fish in the picture had been dead for a couple of days.

First let me say; I am not an expert.

Quincy my advice is:
Keep doing water changes to improve the water quality.
The next step is to try and accurately diagnose the disease problem with testing.
I doubt that it is only dirty water and rocks killing your fish (I know that is not what others meant, but that sure is the implication in some responses).

Since your pond is 6 years old with little or no problems before; I am assuming that the remaining few Koi (disease free) could survive in your pond.
Be prepared that you may lose all or some more Koi.

For the future, you need to have a plan for disease outbreaks.
You need to have access to one of the better books (with pictures) on Koi health.
You need to have a good (and quick) source for Koi medications. Maybe a Koi medicine cabinet.

[ricshaw]

For Ricshaw: It might.

Kind of like saying quite smoking cigarettes and you will cure the cancer.

Being serious;
Actually, I agree Will... there is a chance it might.

[Luvmypond]

Is there any way something might have leaked into the pond? I only ask because if he's had this pond for awhile with no problems, maybe something got into it. And I think most of us are overstocked. The water changes are a necessity. Any little sign of a problem, do a water change. I would also get any debris out of the pond if there is any. Hope you stop loosing fish soon.

[ricshaw]

Is there any way something might have leaked into the pond?

I would suspect not. If the fish were poisoned I would suspect massive die off with little physical disease symptoms.

From the pictures, I see symptoms of disease.

[Kntry]

Let me start by saying that it's very difficult if not impossible, to diagnosis what the exact problem is without actually being there in person. Since a lot of us don't have anyone close enough to call, the Boards are the only hope of saving our pet so we do the best we can.

When you're trying to help a sick fish/pond, you have to choose a regiment and follow it. You cannot do part of 1 and part of another, etc. That will surely end up with an entire pond of dead fish.

Water changes are great and needed. The reason I asked for water tests before recommending water changes is because now, the water tests are useless. You still need a good drop test kit.

Without a microscope, there's no way to tell if there are parasites.

More questions:

Is the bottom of the pond clean or is there mulm there? Still need info on the filtration setup.

Are the fish flashing, sitting on the bottom, eating, etc? How are they acting?

Doreen, the reason he hasn't had problems in the past is because he's added additional fish over the 6 years and those fish have grown. The pond is extremely overstocked and maintenance has not been done. Due to the size of the pond, I'm also assuming (and I may be wrong) that there isn't adequate filtration, no bottom drains or air.

If you can answer the questions and provide pics, we may be able to help you save the fish you have left.

[ricshaw]

Doreen, the reason he hasn't had problems in the past is because he's added additional fish over the 6 years and those fish have grown. The pond is extremely overstocked and maintenance has not been done. Due to the size of the pond, I'm also assuming (and I may be wrong) that there isn't adequate filtration, no bottom drains or air.


What I find unusual is that he is having problems NOW in the dead of winter. Usually it is the spring and/or summer months when the problems happen.

Then again, I do not have any experience with very cold freezing winter.

[stroppy]

i have no idea whats wrong, but for those of you in America we have had one of the coldest snaps ever recorded here in the UK and im guessing its been just as cold in quincies Area, now i dont know if that has anything to do with the problems he has, but if the ponds not very deep it might have added to the problem

[Quincy]

There is a little excess algae and some leaves in the bottom corners and edges no where else though.
The filtration goes through a pump into a box with sprinkler bars.
I haven't noticed the fish flashing they are sitting on the bottom they have started swimming around a bit more lately. I haven't given them any food as the water is only 6 degrees centigrade. I should also mention I lost most of the fish when we had a really cold night a week ago (pond froze over) but we had worse conditions last year and I didn't lose a fish.
I do have extra air two air lines that have been switched on.
The filtration is very good I have a very good pump and filtration box.
I will provide pics tomorrow when it is light here in the UK.

[Quincy]

I haven't had all them fish for 6 years either the oldest ones I have had for about 3-4 years some i have only had for a year and a half.

[Luvmypond]

They might of had something in the Fall and it got worse when the water became cold in the winter with their immune system low. Fungus can grow in cold water. Our winter this year has been really mild, last year was a beast.

[koikeepr]

Since you mentioned the pond freezing over, Quincy--let me ask a question! When the pond froze over, was there even a hole for toxic gases to escape? This could be it---when ponds ice over, they need a small hole to remain open so the exchange of gases can occur--if they don't, the fish can die. An aerator pump, such as hewhoisatpeace (Will) mentioned, helps with this. You've got a bunch of culprits rearing their heads now...

[addy1]

I should also mention I lost most of the fish when we had a really cold night a week ago (pond froze over) but we had worse conditions last year and I didn't lose a fish.
.

I wonder if the water was borderline and the freeze over caused the fish to die. lack of air, gases, something.

[Kntry]

Lisa, I thought the same thing.

[Meganne]

Quincy, I am just reading this and want to first say I am very sorry you are having a rough winter with you fish losses and ponding troubles.
and I would like to commend you on your patience as things are contemplated on as to what is happening to you fish. it can be painful to go through and can seem as though your ponding and fish keeping is being picked on, leaving some folks to go and try to find a quick in the bottle solution. and there is no quick solution. thanks for having a thick skin and stickking with us.

you are getting a lot of good advice from everyone, it would have been nice to get a read of your water before you started doing water changes, but now we are where we are so we are left assuming that you did have some water issues by looking at the size of your pond and the fish load. With the lower numbers of inhabitants and now that you know that water changes are a good habit to add to your weekly pond matainance hopefully things will sort themself out as pristine water conditions can cure much of what ails.
Pristine waters help our fish have a healthy immune system for fighting off "fishy flues and colds" that lead to ulcers, fungus and bacterias that can kill.
crowded conditons, large fast tempature changes, very cold waters and iced over waters, low O2, pH swings/drops, high ammonia/nitrite/nitrates and parasites open our fish up to illness.
your pond had/has several of these issues going on all at once, being the remaining fish seem to be doing better you are addressing some of these problems. yeah!
the possibily of parasites is one that can only be ruled out, as Ricshaw suggests, by doing a scrape and scope.
the remaining fishes' behavior can give clues.
are they flashing or jumping any?
is it still so cold they are sitting on bottom? are they on their sides? are thier fins clamped?(being still is different than being stressed)
do any of the remaining fish others have that white slim/fuzz?
hopefully continued improvement is all you will report from here on out and we are over the hump

[Quincy]

There was a very small hole where the water goes in but not much I did actually wonder whether the toxic gases could have been the issue but would that explain the ulcers and other signs?

[addy1]

How long was it frozen over for? a few days, a week?

[Quincy]

Only one night but it was in the morning after that i noticed loads were dead so they must have died in the night. It was very cold I was struggling to hold the net it was that cold but my pond is deep and as I said we had worse conditions last year.

[Kntry]

They could have died from a lack of oxygen/gas exchange but that wouldn't have caused the ulcers. It's a water quality problem.

A pond with koi should be at least 3' deep. As cold as it gets in your area, it should be much deeper. The more water volume, the stabler your water temps would be. The heat of the ground at deeper depths would give the fish a place to go to get out of the extremely cold water.

You should always have at least a saucer sized hole in the ice when the pond freezes over.

[HEADACHE]

I have only glanced at this thread so I may have missed something.

I saw where it has been suggested to do water changes, and I agree 100%.

My question is, When was the last time you cleaned your filter(s) ? Do you have both Mechanical (The trapping of Solids) & Bio (The removal of Ammonia/Nitrites) or kind of everything in the filter all together ? I'm not sure if this has been asked .

[Will]

I have only glanced at this thread so I may have missed something.

I saw where it has been suggested to do water changes, and I agree 100%.

My question is, When was the last time you cleaned your filter(s) ? Do you have both Mechanical (The trapping of Solids) & Bio (The removal of Ammonia/Nitrites) or kind of everything in the filter all together ? I'm not sure if this has been asked .
I don't think we've gotten to that point, Troy. Smooth bottom, that's great, he's said, but there are a lot of unanswered questions to clarify the situation. But yours are, as always, right on target.

[Luvmypond]

Filtration: pumped up to a high level box which allows the water to fall by gravity the box has 2 sprinkler bars, 2 UV filters and is filled with lava rock fine grade (1in) to the top and course grade (2in) to the bottom half of the tank.

Doesn't say anything about mats. Pics of his pond and filter would be most helpful.