Long story involving sick fish

[ash0587]

Hello everyone,
first off let me say hello since I'm new to the forums. I've had my pond for about three years now and had helped my grandfather take care of his pond for several years before that. I have a semi-long story so please bear with me.
We dug our pond three years ago and added 10 koi to it the first year. we had a minor issue with our first fish developing a sore on his head, and he was promptly removed and quarantined, healed and replaced. other than that incident we had no issues the first year.
during the second year in may we added a new koi after a two week quarantine. everything was fine until july when we had a heat wave in our area. suddenly we noticed two of our older fish floating on their sides, then dashing off when we came near them. they had nothing visibly wrong with them so we assumed it was a water quality issue and we changed the water. well those two fish ended up dying, and then our other fish started doing the same. they were flashing, gasping at the surface, floating at their side, or hanging at the bottom and not moving. all but two passed away, and they happened to be our very first fish and our very last fish.
when all of that was happening we frantically took our water to be tested at our local pond place, and also bought salt, meds and a pH balancer (even though I didn't believe it was a pH issue, since it seemed parasitic in nature). we continued to do water changes and filter cleanings frequently to ensure our last two fish survived.
well now this year, we bought 7 new koi, and quarantined them for a month before adding them to our pond. about 3 days after adding them they started doing the exact same thing that our infected fish did last year, and all but our original two perished. we again had our water tested and everything was spot on. we did not medicate this time (since it happened so suddenly) but did up our salt levels in hopes that we could save our koi.
now obviously we won't know what is killing the fish unless we get a microscope to check, and we do intend to get one this summer, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever experienced this and if anyone knows what parasite this could be. it clearly isn't affecting our two older koi which makes me wonder if they are now carriers since they survived the first attack.
I'm also wondering if this could be some bacteria/parasite being brought in by our local toads. we have tons of tadpoles in our pond right now, and my husbands scoops out what he can each day (I cant do it since I find it inhumane), but we can't keep the adult toads out of the pond, unless there's a secret way we don't know about.
I'd appreciate any insight anyone could give me. we don't intend to even attempt to add anymore fish and will just live with it looking really empty with only two fish in it until we can figure this out and get it treated.
thanks much!

[Meganne]

welcome to the forum, sorry you are having troubles.
you give a good picture for the folks here to start out with but a little more information will help.
*population in the pond...1 new koi(six other new ones dies?) and one older koi(the survivor from last season), any one else calling the pond home?
*pond size and depth
*filtration system and matainance habits
*water test numbers, pH, nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia....."they are good" is not an answer, actual numbers are needed.
*plants or rocks in the pond?

these answers will give fuller picture of you situation.
in the mean time is there a local koi club, someone pond side can be better for help than on line...but we will help as much as possible

[Kntry]

You said this happened when the water warmed up. Here are a few more questions.

Do you have any aeration in the pond?
What did the fish look like that died? Heavy slime coat, sores, no slime coat, did you look at the gills of the fish before they died and if so, what color were they? What is your QT protocol? 2 weeks is not enough time. You said you changed the water. Did you do a water change or did you empty the entire pond? Do you have city water and if so, did you add dechlor? Have you tested your source water and if so, what are the results? Please use a drop test kit, not strips.

[ash0587]

*population in the pond...1 new koi(six other new ones dies?) and one older koi(the survivor from last season), any one else calling the pond home?
- pond population is currently back down to our very first fish, one from season two and one from this year. We also have tadpoles from the wild toads

*pond size and depth
- approximately 4000 gallons, 4 ft on the deep end, 2 ft on shallow

*filtration system and matainance habits
- we have 3 pumps 2- 2100 gallons and 1- 3500 gallon. The 2100 gallons both go through biofilters into a waterfall, and the 3500 goes through a large sunterra pressure filter. Filters are cleaned monthly by my husband, and water is changed once to twice a season.
*water test numbers, pH, nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia....."they are good" is not an answer, actual
- I don’t know the numbers. We don’t have a test kit, my husband took the water to our pond shop and had it tested with their pondcare brand liquid test kit. He didn’t write the numbers down, he just knows when they told him the numbers they also showed the range chart and explained that quality is good.
*plants or rocks in the pond?
- we have 9 hardy lilies and 3 of their baskets have river rocks in them. All lily plants have been there since the first season.
*Do you have any aeration in the pond?
- stated in matainance
*What did the fish look like that died?
- they looked normal except the fact that they were dead. No slime coat, no sores, no unlcers, no veining, no spots. I didn’t look closely at the gills except to asses that there were no red spots.
*What is your QT protocol?
- season two we did 2 weeks, this year we did 4 weeks due to the die off in season 2.
*You said you changed the water. Did you do a water change or did you empty the entire pond?
- we emptied the entire pond in season 2, meaning we took every last bit out that we could. This year we only did our beginning of the year water change, and that was before brining the new fish home.

*Do you have city water and if so, did you add dechlor? Have you tested your source water and if so, what are the results?
- yes city water, no dechlor, and no we haven’t tested because we don’t have a test kit.

[Will]

City water contains chemicals to kill things. The bacteria in your biofilters are one thing that will be killed, also fish exposed to chlorine and/or chloramine are at a high risk of death, with symptoms such as you have described.

Water changes really need to be done weekly to the tune of 20%, and dechlorinator added every time water is added to the pond. Before I would jump to concerns about parasites, I would ensure the water is managed correctly.

A freshwater Master Test Kit is manufactured by API and available in most larger pet stores. This kit uses liquid reagents to test ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, and high range pH. These are the most important initial numbers to look for. I really wonder what the pH is as well, because a low pH can kill fish. High pH and any ammonia can kill fish, too, so the addition of chlorinated water could damage your biofilter enough that it was unable to efficiently convert ammonia, even a very small amount of ammonia at a high pH could be fatal, especially to fish whose gills are already damaged by chlorine exposure.

So, dechlorinator and the API test kit would be on my shopping list for this. API kits are around $30 at Petsmart, and Prime (a dechlorinator and nitrogen fixer) is about $10 for more than enough for 4000g.

[ash0587]

I have a water test kit coming in the mail and we are going to start testing, changing the water more, and dechlorinating, but if this were simply a chlorine over-exposure wouldn't it affect all the fish and not just some? And please understand I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to figure out what the heck is going on. my husband rushed into this whole pond thing simply because his grandpa has had a pond for 20 years, and while we've helped him with maintenance, he has never had issues. he only changes water once a year, never tests quality, never adds any chemicals to it, and has never had any major issues. so now we're experiencing all these problems and my husband isn't exactly in the same boat as me as far as testing the quality of the water and treating it, so if I can go to him and say "look, this does point to a quality issue because ..." he may be more likely to listen. at this point I'm just frustrated with the whole thing and am ready to say once the last two fish die if they ever do, we're filling in the giant whole and never having a pond again. and my feelings arn't helped by the fact that our submersible pump just died today, and the same thing happened last year. I'm praying sunterra will uphold their warranty this year but I'm not holding my breath.

[ricshaw]

Hello everyone,
first off let me say hello since I'm new to the forums. I've had my pond for about three years now and had helped my grandfather take care of his pond for several years before that. I have a semi-long story so please bear with me.
We dug our pond three years ago and added 10 koi to it the first year. we had a minor issue with our first fish developing a sore on his head, and he was promptly removed and quarantined, healed and replaced. other than that incident we had no issues the first year.
during the second year in may we added a new koi after a two week quarantine. everything was fine until july when we had a heat wave in our area. suddenly we noticed two of our older fish floating on their sides, then dashing off when we came near them. they had nothing visibly wrong with them so we assumed it was a water quality issue and we changed the water. well those two fish ended up dying, and then our other fish started doing the same. they were flashing, gasping at the surface, floating at their side, or hanging at the bottom and not moving. all but two passed away, and they happened to be our very first fish and our very last fish.
when all of that was happening we frantically took our water to be tested at our local pond place, and also bought salt, meds and a pH balancer (even though I didn't believe it was a pH issue, since it seemed parasitic in nature). we continued to do water changes and filter cleanings frequently to ensure our last two fish survived.
well now this year, we bought 7 new koi, and quarantined them for a month before adding them to our pond. about 3 days after adding them they started doing the exact same thing that our infected fish did last year, and all but our original two perished. we again had our water tested and everything was spot on. we did not medicate this time (since it happened so suddenly) but did up our salt levels in hopes that we could save our koi.
now obviously we won't know what is killing the fish unless we get a microscope to check, and we do intend to get one this summer, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever experienced this and if anyone knows what parasite this could be. it clearly isn't affecting our two older koi which makes me wonder if they are now carriers since they survived the first attack.
I'm also wondering if this could be some bacteria/parasite being brought in by our local toads. we have tons of tadpoles in our pond right now, and my husbands scoops out what he can each day (I cant do it since I find it inhumane), but we can't keep the adult toads out of the pond, unless there's a secret way we don't know about.
I'd appreciate any insight anyone could give me. we don't intend to even attempt to add anymore fish and will just live with it looking really empty with only two fish in it until we can figure this out and get it treated.
thanks much!

First let me say it is not uncommon to hear about people with ponds that have fish die every year.
It is also not uncommon for people to have ponds with Koi that live 10, 20, even 30 years in their ponds.
I am sorry, but I can't diagnose your pond problems without seeing your pond in person.
My advice is to contact other pond people in your area for help and advice.
For starters, you could contact the Ohio Koi Club (http://members.core.com/~klee365/koiclub.html) to see if there are any members in your area.

[Kntry]

This does not sound like a parasite problem. It sounds like a combination of things, probably originating from the untreated chlorine water. Chlorine burns the fishes' gills, making it hard or impossible for them to breathe. Add hot water temps that make what little oxygen is there almost unavailable to them and they suffocate. The larger fish are usually the first to die.

There are very few occasions when you should empty your pond. You should remove 10-20% of the water weekly and then replace it with fresh water, adding dechlor each time. The filters should be cleaned weekly, at the same time you do water changes, using pond water. As Will said, chlorine kills off the beneficial bacteria in the filters creating a constant new pond syndrome. It takes 6-8 weeks for the filters to cycle so each time you do a water change without adding dechlor, you're killing off the little bacteria that has started colonizing.

Depending on the temp of the water and the amount of "splash" made by the waterfall, you may need to add an air pump to the pond.

[Will]

Yes, addition of air would not only aerate but also help to cool the water. The waterfall is a good thing, it acts like an air conditioner for the water, but I'd think you need more aeration, too. It's hard to have too much.

I'd hate to hear you give up on having a pond, it is a great hobby. Just need to change a few things about the way it's handled. And we're not condemning you at all, everyone has to start somewhere. We all have learned this stuff somehow, and usually through unfortunate experiences. It can get a lot better, and we'll try to coach you through it.

[ash0587]

thanks for the suggestions. We're getting the test kit tomorrow and getting some dechlor. the thing I found odd is that last year it was really hot when it happened, this year its been chilly. Now that me and my husband have talked it over he's onboard with considering it might be the water and not a disease, but the other weird thing is that its affecting the small fish first, and our biggest fish hasn't seemed affected at all.
We also had our big pump die today, and I don't know how long its going to be gone, so now we've lost one of our waterfalls plus our bubbler thingy, meaning less aeration.
arg this is just all so frustrating and sad.
once we get the kit I can post numbers on here and let you all know what we're dealing with, and then take it from there. thanks again for the support.
oh and thanks ricsaw for posting the link to the koi club. we might ask if one of them lives around us and is willing to come over and take a look, and help give us some pointers

[ash0587]

also, I just did a search to see if petco carries a liquid test kit and noticed the master kit doesn't cover chlorine. I did a search and the only thing I found are the aquarium test strips.... are those acceptable or is there something better? I checked a few of the pet sites I've looked at and can't find any pond specific chlorine tests.

[Kntry]

No, strips are not accurate. You can order an API test kit online for about $20. There are no test kits that have a test for chlorine that I know of. You have to order it separately. Be sure to test your source water because the city will dump extra chlorine during times of heavy rain.

Sodium Thiosulfate (ST) is the cheapest dechlor.

[ash0587]

Thats why I was asking if someone knows of a liquid chlorine test, I did an internet search and couldn't find one. and thanks for suggesting the sodium thiosulfate.

[Will]

I use sodium thiosulfate in my established ponds, but when cycling or if ammonia or nitrite is a concern, I use Prime to dechlor, as it binds ammonia and nitrite quickly and effectively, saving the fish while still leaving the nitrogen compounds in the water to cycle the filter. I do couple this, though, with lots of 20% water changes.

[Meganne]

I have a water test kit coming in the mail and we are going to start testing, changing the water more, and dechlorinating, but if this were simply a chlorine over-exposure wouldn't it affect all the fish and not just some? And please understand I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to figure out what the heck is going on. my husband rushed into this whole pond thing simply because his grandpa has had a pond for 20 years, and while we've helped him with maintenance, he has never had issues. he only changes water once a year, never tests quality, never adds any chemicals to it, and has never had any major issues. so now we're experiencing all these problems and my husband isn't exactly in the same boat as me as far as testing the quality of the water and treating it, so if I can go to him and say "look, this does point to a quality issue because ..." he may be more likely to listen. at this point I'm just frustrated with the whole thing and am ready to say once the last two fish die if they ever do, we're filling in the giant whole and never having a pond again. and my feelings arn't helped by the fact that our submersible pump just died today, and the same thing happened last year. I'm praying sunterra will uphold their warranty this year but I'm not holding my breath.

chlorine over-exposure wont always kill them all, some are stornger than others. I had all my goldies temporariy in a kiddie pool and my dear hubby decided to top off the water for me one afternoon and then forgot the tap running for hours, most of them died but a few seemed no worse for the wear.
with the perfect situation a simple pond can seem to click along for years with out a problem and then the same sort of set up can go wrong at another location.
my guess is it is a perfect storm of things as Will and Sandy have pointed out but as Ricshaw said, someone pond side will be much more helpful so I am glad you are looking into that.
the learning curve can be steep and fast but if you can get past the hump then I think you will find it will have all been worth the frustration!

[whodatkoi]

This is a fantastic test kit, covering almost all essential water parameters including chlorine. Believe it or not, this is the least expensive "high end" test kit available in the market today.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/4457/eXact-Eco-Check-Photometer-System

[Will]

This is a fantastic test kit, covering almost all essential water parameters including chlorine. Believe it or not, this is the least expensive "high end" test kit available in the market today.

That kit seems to be based on test strips, not reagents. How dependable would you think the readings would be?

[ricshaw]

That kit seems to be based on test strips, not reagents. How dependable would you think the readings would be?

Could be very accurate because of "photometer (http://www.sensafe.com/eco-check/)".
Not the same as the "test strips" your father used.

[Will]

I see, you're right. Not the test strips I was thinking of.

[ash0587]

thanks for all the posts. I was thinking along the same lines of the big guy being more of a trooper than the other fish. unfortunately everyone except him is gone. we were able to get the dechlor in there, but are still waiting on the test kit to come in so I can post numbers.

[Will]

You might call your water company to find out what is added to your water, chlorine or chloramine. Chloramine is chlorine chemically combined with ammonia, and has a much longer life in the water, degrading to chlorine and ammonia. If you have chlorine only, that's great and the sodium thiosulfate will work very well. For chloramine, you must both detoxify the chlorine and bind the ammonia. The Prime I mentioned takes care of this for you. If you use thiodsulfate as a dechlor with chloramine, you'll need to add Amquel or a similar ammonia binding product, too.

[Appliance Guy]

Possibly stray voltage? (Like an ungrounded submersable pump or a tear in a cord.)

[whodatkoi]

That kit seems to be based on test strips, not reagents. How dependable would you think the readings would be?

Will,

It is very dependable and I like it a lot. Ray Jordan had written an article about this test kit in KoiUSA about 5-6 months ago. The only two minor drawbacks are 1) it is a little slow in reading NH3/NO2/NO3 (take 6-10 min. in each test) and 2) the strips that come with the kit tend to have expiration dates of less than one year (I just recently order replacements and one of the test strip expires in Nov this year, leaving me only 5 months of useful lifetime). Koivillage used to carry this kit at a lower price but, unfortunately, no longer.

[ricshaw]

Possibly stray voltage? (Like an ungrounded submersable pump or a tear in a cord.)

We can only hope that anybody using electricity around a pond has a GFI (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/gfi.html) (Ground Fault Interrupter) installed to protect from electrical shock.

[ash0587]

alright I finally have the numbers from the test kit, the pH is 8.6, ammonia is 0.25, and nitrates and nitrites were both at zero. we added the dechlor and a dose of algecide and found that we still had one of our new fish, who after having the dechlor added was out swimming around where we could see him. my husband and I have been talking about it back and fourth and he realized that he added some water to the pond the day before all the fish started acting weird and then dying so we're pretty dang sure that it must've been the chlorine. we still aren't going to add any new fish until next year, and we'll do a proper quarantine next time around too. I'll read up around the boards and learn more about proper pond keeping over the summer. thanks for all the help

[Kntry]

Algaecide is another chemical that shouldn't be used. It has been known to kill fish if you don't know your exact gallonage.

Good luck and let us know the outcome. Be sure what you're reading is reliable!

[Will]

Just something to think about: With a pH that high, any ammonia showing up on a home test kit is too much. There are 2 possibilities as to why this occurred: 1, that you need additional biological conversion going on in the pond, and 2, that there is chloramine in your water, and the use of a dechlorinator has freed the ammonia from the chloramine so that it is free in the system. What dechlor did you use?

I would check the ammonia every day to see if it diminishes rapidly. I would also (as soon as possible) use an ammonia binder in the pond. Testable ammonia at pH 8.6 is extremely dangerous to your fish.

[Appliance Guy]

I would check the ammonia every day to see if it diminishes rapidly. I would also (as soon as possible) use an ammonia binder in the pond. Testable ammonia at pH 8.6 is extremely dangerous to your fish.

Appliance Guy agrees. I use Amquel as an ammonia binder/dechlor in a situation like that. Must test daily and monitor for changing activities.

[Will]

Appliance Guy agrees. I use Amquel as an ammonia binder/dechlor in a situation like that. Must test daily and monitor for changing activities.
Appliance Guy is turning into Ricshaw?

[Appliance Guy]

4892

[Will]

:lol:, guess so.