Sick fish need advice

[Mild Bill]

Ok, I treated with ProformC for 3 days in a row with water changes in between. Today I am treating with Aqua-Prazi and now all but a few are huddled under the lilys. They still come for food like they always do when I tap my foot on the porch. This is really driving me crazy. I am going to start another round of ProformC but this time I'm doing 5 treatments over 9 days, one every other day. I have heard this is a good way to kill Ich. We haven't had any die since Friday but they still aren't acting right.

Any thoughts or advice would be welcomed.
Bill

[Kntry]

Welcome to TPF.

We need a lot more information. Size of pond, how long has the pond been set up, how many and what size fish, when is the last time you added new fish or plants, filtration, do you do water changes, rocks in bottom, why did you treat with ProFormC and now Prazi?

From a drop test kit, what is the pH morning and night, ammonia, nitrites, alkalinity?

Sorry for all the questions but it's hard enough to help someone via the internet even with all the info. We'd like to give you the correct information.

[tranquility]

this sounds more like them being scared--any chance you have a heron visiting? But, also as Sandy said need alot more info.

[Mild Bill]

Temp 80
PH 8.7
Am. between 0 & .25 Will ProformC give an Ammonia reading?
Nit. 0
Nitrates 5.0
KH 125
UV off for four days
100 & 40L air going

Third year for 4000 gal. pond, no bottom drain, Nexus 310 filter, 72 watt Oase UV, 4200 gpm pump on bottom, 4800 gpm pump in skimmer to biofalls with Matala mats, two small bog areas filled with plants around the edge on one end, 3 feet deep, straight walled with liner, 100L air pump in filter and 40L air pump to 9" disc in pond, gets full sun 80% of the day, no rocks on the bottom.

We had two koi die the first had what looked like wet cotton clumps on is head and tail, the second wasn't nearly as bad. none of them had any sores on them. I can see some white patches on a couple in the pond now.

[Kntry]

Thank you!

First off, you need to do more water changes. A Nitrate reading of 5 will not kill them but it's not good. The only way to lower them is to do water changes. You should be doing 15-20% weekly. Empty 15-20% and then refill. Be sure to use dechlor if you have city water.

You didn't say how many and what size fish or when the last time is that a new fish was put in. Sounds like Fungus but pics would help a lot.

[Mild Bill]

We have about 30 lbs. of fish, from 4" to 20". New fish at least a month ago. Arm & Hammer would love me if I would change that much. My tap water has almost no alkalinity.

[Will]

!st, with a pH that high, that ammonia reading, although very low, is stressing the fish a lot. I'd back off on feeding until it is at 0 consistently.

2nd, if you were able to incorporate some crushed oyster shell, at least 50 lbs, into your filtration, kh would stay very good and pH would slowly drop to about 8.3, with no further baking soda. I have pH 7.0 source water, supersoft, and maintain pH 8.3 and a kh over 100 with one 55g sand and gravel filter, using crushed oyster (chicken grit) instead of sand. I have 3 ponds, all use this method and stay very good fish conditions, with no baking soda.

Not a cure for you, but something to consider.

[Meganne]

seems you need to tweek the water quality some like Sandy and Will are suggesting.
the parrasitic bugs, fungi and illnesses which are always present in pond water take advantage of the immune system of weaker fish pushing them over the edge when they are stressed with water issues.
keeping the water at the highest quality possile helps your fish help themselves

[Mild Bill]

I had the salt level at .12 to deal with the ammonia but lowered it to .05 to add meds.

[Will]

Salt won't help with ammonia, only nitrite. Even then, .12 is much higher than I would use, .03 is more my speed. But, I don't like salt in the pond at all, really, unless dealing with nitrite spikes when first cycling. My advice would certainly be to back off meds and salt, increase water changes to boost water quality. At least that is the first thing I'd try, I haven't had any issues with fish illness since I established good QT procedure and good water quality.

[Mild Bill]

Right now I'm feeding 30 lbs. of koi about 5 oz. of food a day. I didn't think that was much.

[Kntry]

The advice you've been given is right. No salt belongs in the pond unless you're dealing with Nitrites. High pH makes any level of ammonia toxic.

If this isn't a new pond and you're having ammonia readings, you're either overfeeding, too many fish, not enough filtration and/or not doing enough filter cleanings but more than likely a combination of all of them.

Did you QT the last fish you put in the pond? If not, that is probably the beginning of your problems. Can you post pics?

[Mild Bill]

Yes did QT but maybe not long enough. I clean the Nexus about 3 times a week and the Matala mats in the biofalls 1-2 times a week. The amount of K1 I have in the Nexus is capable of processing over a pound of food a day.

[Mild Bill]

This is one that died. The other one that died did not look nearly as bad. 4806

[tranquility]

Also Salt and Proform-C do not mix..you could kill the fish if you mix the two...
Lawanna

[Will]

Also Salt and Proform-C do not mix..you could kill the fish if you mix the two...
Lawanna
Good catch, Lawanna. I had missed that both were used at the same time.

[Mild Bill]

I had the salt level at .12 to deal with the ammonia but lowered it to .05 to add meds.

I had a little brain fade there when I said I used salt to deal with ammonia. I meant to say, I had the .12 level to deal with nitrites until my filter had cycled.

[Mild Bill]

I came home tonight to a third dead fish. This one as far as I could tell had nothing obvious wrong with it. I'm clueless and this is really starting to tick me off !!!

[Mild Bill]

Also Salt and Proform-C do not mix..you could kill the fish if you mix the two...
Lawanna

Their website says don't use if salt level is over .05%.

[Meganne]

have you done any of the recomended water changes?
the solution to pollution is dillution
20% today and 15% daily till you get those numbers down to 0

did youlook at the gills? what color where they and how did they look.
please stop adding things to the water unless you have scraped and scoped and know what needs treating

[Mild Bill]

I looked at the last one and they looked pink. I'm doing changes but I don't have a scope.

[Meganne]

stop feeding until we figure things out.

by pink do you mean cotton candy pink or raw steak dark pink?

[Meganne]

water changes, wonderful.
a few things I missed with your pond.
pond gallons and fish load(yes I see 30 lbs of fish, but I am blonde on that so how many and what size please...or should I say how many are there now?)

my guess is your fish load got to large for the pond and the waters went foul and MotherNature culled for you.
lets get things right and save the ones remaining.

[Kntry]

You need to look at the gills of a live fish, not dead. As soon as they die, blood stops circulating and the gills will change colors.

[Mild Bill]

4000 gallons, now 30 fish, cotton candy pink. 5 dead so far, out of ideas and remedies.

[Meganne]

hate to be the barer of bad news Bill but you have an awful lot of fish in there. 4 years seems to be the magic number when a heavly stocked pond goes awry, and the pond owner always says "but it has been fine for years!"
right now you sound like you are doing the right things....
water changes
regular filter cleanings
lots of air
(keep this up! well done)

things are going to have to run their course, if I were you I would cut the fish load in half, that way I would get to choose the ones that survive instead of MotherNature, she is a tough old bird and generally takes the prettiest.

I know it is hard thing to do, most of us have culled/rehomed fish, we understand.
but the possitive things you will see instantly are the atmosphere of the pond will become more soothing, and you will enjoy individual fish much more. waters will get clear within a day or two...and the health of the water will improve.

[Mild Bill]

Well as it stands right now we are down about 15 or so, I'm getting tired of counting the dead. The wat I figure the last 12 or 15 will be gone by Sunday. Monday there will be some good buys on pond equipment.

[Kntry]

Please don't give up. This hobby has a steep learning curve.

Is the cotton candy color on dead or live fish?

Meg is correct. You need to rehome all but 10 fish. If you don't, you'll either lose all your favorite or possibly all of them. Mother Nature isn't choosey.

Without pics of the fish, my opinion is that the fish you put in without quarantining them brought something in. Your fish were already stressed due to overcrowding and just coming out of winter. They were unable to fight off whatever was brought in. Shotgun treating usually kills more than it saves.

Don't beat yourself up. We've all been there, done that. It's a journey and you're just beginning to learn. You obviously love the fish or you wouldn't be stressing over this. Lets get you through this. If you lose all of them, you can sterilize the pond by running bleach through it, rinsing very well and you can start over. This time, you'll know better than to over crowd the pond and that you MUST QT any new fish.

We've all felt like giving up at one time or another but those of us that have stuck it out and learned from our mistakes are SO happy that we didn't give up.

Please, post some pics of the fish. It will really help us. Run another set of water tests and post the results. How are the fish acting?

Edit: I've re-read this thread several times to see if I missed something. Do you have muck in the bottom of the pond or is it clean? Do you have city water and if so, have you checked the chlorine level out of the tap and do you add dechlor when doing water changes?

[Will]

Sandy's got her stuff together, please listen to everything she writes.

[Kntry]

Sandy's got her stuff together, please listen to everything she writes.

Thank you, Will.

[Mild Bill]

If we ever get a handle on this I think we'll be down to about 10 or so. I would not give them to anyone even if I thought we nailed it. I would worry that we missed something and cause someone else a lot of grief. Last year we gave 98 fish away and of the 98 I think one person (out of many) with a very small pond and almost no filtration had 2 or 3 die. Just the other day we got a call asking if we had extras this year because the ones they got last year are so nice and getting big. I thought wow that was strange that we got that call in the middle of all the problems we were having. Because nobody locally knows of our recent deaths yet. We found a local vet that said she would try to help us. She never worked with fish but she scoped them for us and found gill flukes. She also had help from Rick at Aquameds advising her over the phone on where to take the samples and what to look for. The people at Aqua-meds stepped up with advice over the phone and made sure I got their medicated food the next day. Tom at Koi Care Kennel came through with calls and advice about their Proform products and use. USAKoi came through after I called about our order of ProformC and Aqua-Prazi and bumped the shipment up to next day shipping. Everyone involved want follow up calls, so I guess it's just not all about the money for everybody out there. Oh there were some out there that really didn't care but they were the minority. I'm also glad for all the thoughts and ideas here on the forum. We don't know if we'll have any left after it's all said and done but we're trying. By the way we have a nice microscope coming tomorrow. We are still treating for the next few days, will post with some number soon.

Thanks again, Bill

[Meganne]

that is great news Bill!
I know it has been a tough time of it for you but look at all you have learned climbing up that steep learning curve!
WELL DONE!
and the very best thing is you have found a vet willing to work with you, I know koi keepers who would give thier eye teeth for that!

[Mild Bill]

I still think there is something else going on that the treatments are not killing. 4 dead in the last 12 hours.

[Mild Bill]

Twice now I've witnessed fish die. Both times they were swimming around and suddenly they take a "fit" and just roll over dead no gasping at the surface, nothing. It's like they are taking a seizure or having a heart attack. Strange!

[Will]

Wow, Bill, that is strange. I'm wondering if something might have gotten into your water that is not being tested for, that doesn't sound to me like anything I am aware of. Wish I could be of more help.

[Mild Bill]

I don't know if that's how thry all died or not. We did an 80% change out two days ago.

[Kntry]

I was going to suggest a very large water change. I'm glad you beat me to it. You never did say if the gills are pink on live or dead fish.

I'm going to send you my cell no. Please forward it to your Vet and tell her if she has any questions, please call me. I've worked with Vets over the phone and sometimes it helps.

[Mild Bill]

six dead tonight, not happy at all.

[Mild Bill]

What about using BGDX ?

[Kntry]

What is BGDX?

How do the fish act before they die?

PLEASE, post some pics. I don't care if they're dead or alive but I need to see some pics of the entire fish, the head area, too.

[Mild Bill]

died last night.

[Mild Bill]

heres some

[tranquility]

Temp 80
PH 8.7
Am. between 0 & .25 Will ProformC give an Ammonia reading?
Nit. 0
Nitrates 5.0
KH 125
UV off for four days
100 & 40L air going

Third year for 4000 gal. pond, no bottom drain, Nexus 310 filter, 72 watt Oase UV, 4200 gpm pump on bottom, 4800 gpm pump in skimmer to biofalls with Matala mats, two small bog areas filled with plants around the edge on one end, 3 feet deep, straight walled with liner, 100L air pump in filter and 40L air pump to 9" disc in pond, gets full sun 80% of the day, no rocks on the bottom.

We had two koi die the first had what looked like wet cotton clumps on is head and tail, the second wasn't nearly as bad. none of them had any sores on them. I can see some white patches on a couple in the pond now.

Sandy,
Took this from the first page-is it possible that the meds are getting used up too fast from the plants? so there for not working? or that maybe the culprit is now living in the plants and that the meds are NOT reaching the core of the root mass? just a thought....therefor they are escaping the meds and re-infesting?

[Kntry]

Are the fish swimming irratically? Do they all have a notched nose? Was this fish's nose notched like this before they started dying? Are the new fish still alive and/or well?

Lawanna. That's very possible but with the looks of the fish, meds aren't going to help. I need answers to these questions right now.

[Mild Bill]

The fish are swimming "normally" I think. Most are eating the medicated food. The last new fish that were put in are still living but look like they are starting to get sick. I never noticed any of the fish having noses like that.

[Kntry]

What about the others that died last night?

[tranquility]

Sandy I didn't want to be the first to bring up the notched nose--and the fact that the new fish is still alive does bring some concerns....

Bill pics of a surviving fish's gills would help--also what type of slime coat--heavy or none at all (almost like sandpaper).....
Lawanna

[Mild Bill]

Some have rough patches, light slime coat.

[Kntry]

Bill, this is why I've been asking for pics. It sounds and looks like KHV. The only other thing that would kill this fast Nd have not he'd noses is Costia. If you want to bring. Fish to your Vet and let her s opener Costia, Google Nd print a pic for her. She needs to set the scope at 400x and look very carefully. They are very small and hard to see.

Since the new fish are not really affected, I'm leaning towards KHV. I don't know how many fish you have left but if this were my pond, I would euthanize the remaining fish and sterilize everything by running a strong bleach solution through the pond, filters, pumps, anything that came in contact with the water or fish including nets, food, water hoses, etc.

I don't know how much you know. KHV is a virus and uncurable. Some fish are carriers and don't show symptoms. Ven if the isn't affected, you can let it survive

Where did you get the new fish?? Were they reliable? You don't need to post the name of the company because you don't have proof without sending the fish off to be tested.

Please call me so we can talk.

[tranquility]

And as I've seen before alot of times costia and KHV will go hand in hand--KHV weakens the fish's immune system and Costia kills the fish... so if you are able to catch the costia in time and treat- it "Can" keep the others from dying off but, they then become carriers....And Costia by itself sometimes can be really hard to treat -almost like a super strain of Costia....As Sandy advised please call her--she can lead you in the right direction...
Lawanna

[Will]

Bill, I had a resistant strain last year, thankfully, it was confined to a QT, but I lost everything in there, and sterilized the filter. Meds seemed to have little effect.

[Mild Bill]

Sandy (nice lady) and I talked today about a few options I have. Until now I thought everything koi would get was curable if caught in time. I had heard of KHV but I thought there was no way we'd ever see that.

[Mild Bill]

Any ideas what's causing these resistant strains, is it over use of meds maybe?

[Kntry]

Thanks, Bill

Will is talking about the resistant strain of Costia that we talked about. KHV is a Virus not. Parasite.

Yes, it's caused by people doing shotgun treatments and overuse of antibiotics. Instead of fixing the water quality problem, people jump to using antibiotics. Just like when a kid gets a cold, parents want
automatically want to give them antibiotics.

[Will]

Yes, sorry, Bill, I didn't specify resistant strain of costia, meds did not appear to help, but with no plants at all. If I were treating for a serious problem, I'd certainly remove the plants, thinking that they would harbor parasites in the root mass that the medication did not have time to reach.

With the costia I had, it was new fish, so I had no idea what else they might have going on, too. I think that new strains have evolved that are more resistant to medications through improper use and overuse of the meds.

[tranquility]

Our Sandy is a great person...We are soo fortunate to have her on our side...I can't tell you the number of times I've called her--And no matter what is going on she will always make time to help out fellow ponder...

The more moving about the fish do the more treatments they may get-breedeer to shop,shop to customer...so by the time you've got them then as Sandy said the bug has immunities against the treatment...Not so long back--in the 90's I can remember salt being the cure all for everything--now salt is used for a few very specific things like hospital tanks or in case of high nitrites....Salt won't even touch the bugs we have now....As cheap as salt is can you imagine the over use of it?...and the super strains of costia the loss is almost just as bad--it can hit fast and furious...leaving the pond owner with an empty pond and many questions...

But, with KHV there is NO treatment-
-thats why we stopped bringing in new fish in 2004...the cons for us just out weighed the pros....
Lawanna

[Will]

Our Sandy is a great person...We are soo fortunate to have her on our side...I can't tell you the number of times I've called her--And no matter what is going on she will always make time to help out fellow ponder...
Don't let Lawanna fool you, she's pretty sharp, too, from what I've seen. I'd certainly trust both of them.

[Kntry]

That was very sweet, Lawanna. Thank you.

Lawanna knows a lot more than she thinks! She usually has the answer before she ever calls, she just needs reassurance!

[tranquility]

I think last year proved something to me--just when we think we have this ponding thing figured out...It can turn around and kick us in our teeth....And two minds are always better than one--especially when the one mind is the owner of the pond....Ponding is a very humbling hobby...
Lawanna

[chief hill]

Bump! Just looking for an update. It's been 3 weeks. I have been tolling but not commenting. I don't have enough knowledge about this type of koi keeping. Seeing as koi can become sick with so many things its a long learning curve.
BILL sorry to read about all that has happened. I hope things are turning around for you. Hence why I bumped this for a follow up.

[Mild Bill]

Well here's the latest. The dying has stopped and we are left with ten koi. We have one in a QT tank and treating it but the rest seem ok. They are all active, eating like pigs and no signs of illness. With all the doses of meds it killed the bio in the filter. It took about two weeks but the filter has recycled and is converting again.

[Will]

That's great, Bill. 10 koi are a better stock level for 4000g anyway, but I hope they all keep doing well.

[chief hill]

Well done. Glad to see you have the 10 still.

[Meganne]

Bill I some how lost track of your trials here!
I have a couple questions, how many koi did you loose? how many were new ones and how many were the older ones?
and with all the suspicion of khv I would be strongly considering sending a survivor off for testing.

on the bright side...look how much you have learned! you are now a more skilled koi keeper...well done.

[Mild Bill]

We lost 24 ranging in size from 8" to 20". Only 2 bought from koi "breeders" survived. The rest were half ours from 2 years ago and the other half were original koi bought from a pet store 5 or 6 years ago. It looks like the mutts, if you will were the strongest.

[Meganne]

just read through the thread again.
so you have ten koi left and that is what we thought was most your pond could handle and you where thinking that is what you may be down to at the end....and here we are!
unfortunatly mutts tend to be the strongest, go figure...
two weeks is not long enough for your pond to cycle, more like 6 to have the bio at full capacityand a good year for the pond to mature. keep a close eye on water peramiter for the next month, you are at the top of your fish load and have immature filters still. small water changes daily or every other will help.
i think your large fish load pushed your pond over the cliff health wize but it still might be a good idea to sacrifice one for testing

[odettemayers]

I guess you need to separate the sick fish from others so that they will not pass the sickness to others. You can increase water changes to boost water quality and back off medicine and salt.