Money Saver Pumps

[Will]

They sound great http://www.moneysaverpumps.com/ but is there any reality to this? Adjustable pump would be the best thing since, um, sliced bread. I know you folks never have any opinions, but perhaps you could throw your $.02 in. This would solve my problems (with pond stuff) nicely. Now I just have to remodel the bathroom, buy DW's claw foot tub, and now my girls want sugar gliders (and to think - I even had dreams of a salt water tank - :nope:)

But this could be MY money, & wheedle me a sieve, too.:dunno:

[Carolinagirl]

I skimmed over it....it does sound great! But is it for real? I know they sure are expensive!! The cheapest model that they offer is $1200. The warranty is the same as any other pump, 3 years. I'll have to read over it more today.

[Carolinagirl]

Will, I posted this question on another board I belong to. Hopefully someone there can understand what the site is saying. I don't like web sites that are full of hype. It makes me question the validity of the product right from the start. And that web site is FULL of hype. Maybe Birdman will see this thread....he knows a lot about pumps.

[Will]

Yeah, no kidding about the hype. I can understand the technical lingo very easily, and if half of what they're saying is real, it's probably worth it. Just trying to find some confirmation. I like my artesian, but having the option of going up to a full horse sure would be nice. Depends, really, on their solid state controller. If it's just a rheostat on a 1 HP motor, I can do that myself. They also advertise 115V or 230V, interchangeably, must have to do with the controller. Someone w/ experience would be nice to talk to.

[Carolinagirl]

I think I'd trust a rheostat more than I'd trust an electronic controller. The controller would be nice, but it's hard to beat the reliability of a mechanical devise like a rheostat. Electronic controllers are a lot more unreliable, in my opinion. I wonder if you can order their pumps without the electronics? That is probably a large part of the price. And honeslty I see no reason to need to control the pump speed. They talk about turning the pump down to save power, which might be fine for a swimming pool when you go on vacation, but you would not need to slow down the flow on a koi pond. It needs to turn over at the same rate, 24/7/365. I also don't like the idea of a single pump on a koi pond. Two pumps are much safer. Pumps don't last forever and it is nice to be able to keep half the pond running if one of the pumps goes out.

[koikeepr]

These seem more like pool pumps too me, esp when you talk about driving 100 feet of head. Also, when you talk about horsepower in that sense. Pond pumps really don't work in that manner, but pool pumps do. And pool pumps push water with too much force to be effective in a pond. This is why pool pumps don't belong on ponds and pond pumps don't belong on pools. I think this fellow is trying to capitalize on a larger market by catering to pool and pond people. Stay away....pumps are not one size fits all working in all situations.

[Squidhead]

Having a motor run on a higher voltage will reduce the amount of amps it pulls saving you on the electric bill. So 115v-120v will draw twice as much amps as a 230-240v. Some motors are capable of running both voltages depending on how they are wired and can be changed as needed. The tag on the motor usually states this. Also to reduce power consumption is to reduce the load on the motor. Reducing the load or increasing the voltage/reducing amperage helps eliminate over heating which will make the motor work harder and last less time. To really tell what your pump is drawing you would need a meter or even one of those "kill-a-watt" things that show exactly how much power an appliance is using.

[Kntry]

Most if not all of the Wave pumps can run either 110 or 220 depending on how you wire it.

Unless you really need to increase the hp, I'd stick with the pumps built for ponds like Wave or Performance Pro and put the extra money towards the sieve.

[Renee]

Will, you state in your post, "this will solve my problems with pond stuff" What problems are you having with the pond?

I went through your photos on the other site. Beautiful pond, you were a busy man!

I love my big frog pump from Anjon which sits in the bottom of my 55 gallon barrel. This is my 3rd. summer with it and it works great considering I have dropped it twice, let my barrel run dry more than a few times (not enough flow going into barrel from bottom drain and one skimmer to keep up with this pump) (4200 gph) so I added a 2nd. skimmer and solved that issue. I paid around 289.00 for it and it cost .66 cents a day for me to run it. (250 watt).

Here is the specs on the big frog pump.


http://anjonmfg.com/bigfrogpumps.aspx

[koikeepr]

Power consumption is important indeed, and sequence pumps, evolution pumps, william lim pumps, etc are all energy efficient AND are made specifically for use on a pond where high force is not needed. You don't want to run water to quickly through a pond, it's filters, UV, etc. Dwell time is important in a pond and it's mechanics. The opposite is so for a pool, where high pressure and force and very fast water turnaround is required, and that's because there are no living creatures in a pool and why you ply it with chemicals to keep it from going green.

[Renee]

This is a great article on flow rates. Which is very important when choosing a pump.
http://www.akakoi.com/koi_pond_flow_rates.html

Ffor example, with my pond, even though it is around 2500 gallons, I needed a larger gph pump to correctly turn over my pond water. Because of the distance of my piping running underground, gravity fed to to my barrel and then going from the barrel to my filter and then the head distance up to the waterfall, it reduced my 4200 gph pump down to 2500 or so gph. Which means my pond turns over once every hour.

Learning from my last pond experience starting in 1998, this pond needed to be less of a headache and more enjoyable for me. Plus having healthy fish and a healthy environment for them and low maintenance keeps my stress level down without constant worry over the pond.

There is so much to learn regarding ponds....and I am forever learning. Information is everywhere on the web but it changes and what works for one person might not work for another because of different situations like fish load, city water versus well water, weather, cost, time, etc.

Education is the best tool for pond keepers, that is why I am here...to learn and to share.

[Carolinagirl]

OK. I got some feedback on the other forum I belong to. The problem is.....the numbers that Moneysaver offers are not right. They claim that the 1 hp pump draws only 2.6 amps. The relationship between amps, voltage and horsepower is not something that can be changed....it is a known relationship. So if the pump was 100% efficient (which is is not...that is impossible), on 208 voltage, the bare minimum amps is 3.59 at 208 (220 voltage) and 6.78 amps on 110 voltage. Gallons per hour can be made more effient with impeller design, but I seriously doubt the claims of this company. I'd stick to one of the well-known tried-and-true koi pump manufactures and forget about MoneySaver, because I don't believe their claims.

[Carolinagirl]

Here's something else. The claim of 2.6 amps is against the laws of physics.

From the 65th edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics lists conversion factors on page F-307.

1 Horsepower (mechanical) = 745.7 Watts
1 Horsepower (electric) = 746 Watts
1 Horsepower (metric) = 735.499 Watts
1 Horsepower (water) = 0.746043 Kilowatts

so knowing this. 746 watts / 220 volts equals 3.39 amps. And that is only if the pump was 100% efficient, which it's not. No other way to calculate it. Their claim of 2.6 amps means that the motor is not 1 hp as claimed.

[koikeepr]

LOL! Well, who is gonna argue all that math and science?!?! LOL!

[Carolinagirl]

Yeah, exactly! And according to one of the guys over at the other board, even the 3.59 amps is really unrealistic because no pump is 100% efficient. The pump probably draws more like 13 to 15 amps at full load. That, combined with the really high initial cost makes the "moneySaver" not so much of a money saver at all. If it's only drawing 2.59 amps, it's probably running at less than 1/4 hp. You can buy a W. Lim pump that size for around $500.

[Will]

Thanks, Cindy, that is the information that I was looking for. Yes, those kind of claims are highly suspect, I heard of this pump last year this time, but could not at that time find anyone who had used it, so forgot about it. Looks like I'll just repeat that action this time, too.

My reason for liking an adjustable pump is that I plan to expand my pond at a future date, and like having a pump that will adjust to compensate. So, a W. Lim is your pump of choice in the 4-6000 gph range?

[Carolinagirl]

W. Lim pumps are my favorite. The impeller design is different and they pump more GPH than other pumps their size. Lim pumps are well built and well designed. I can see your reasoning behind wanting a pump you can make bigger later on, but you are really better off getting a second pump if you expand. It's always nice to have two pumps in case one dies. you don't lose all of your filtration that way, only half of it.

[Kntry]

It's also better to have separate pumps so you can have BD on 1 circuit and skimmer on another circuit.

[koikeepr]

I have a Lim pump too on the new pond...I haven't had a single complaint with it. I have an old Sequence that I have no complaints over either. The Lim pump has way more power, however, than the Sequence. I can vouch for that!

The Lim pumps ain't cheap though...

[Will]

Just call me Mr. Plumber, I see a lot of that in my immediate future...

[Carolinagirl]

Okie dokie....got some feedback for you from someone who has actually used the pump. Apparently their claims of energy efficiency are almost true. The reason why is it a 3-phase motor, which is an industrial thing and they do use far less electricity. The controller that it comes with also acts as a phase converter, since household electricity does not support 3-phase. He said he gets better flow from this pump than he did his 1/4 hp sequence that runs at around 3 amps, but not enough to justify the price difference. The BIGGEST issue he has is with the controller. Every time the power blips or flashes in his house, the pump has to be manually restarted. That's a HUGE problem! He also said the thing came with NO literature at all. So now you know the whole story. Good pump that does save some energy, but not enough to justify the price and not reliable enough due to the controller issues.

[koikeepr]

Cgirl, this has been very informative. Thanks for ferreting out the truth about the pump.

[Will]

Very informative, indeed. New technology is always of interest to me, but with all that hype one must assume that there are some hellacious caveats. Thanks for tracking that down so thoroughly, I appreciate the donation of time from such a driven person.

[koikeepr]

Will, our moderators are no joke! LOL! You will get well informed info, and not just straight personal opinion here. Nice to have a blend of both so that we can make good decisions for our ponds.

[Carolinagirl]

I am just glad I could help. Any time I hear about some new pond gadget, it interests me. If the pump could really do all it says it could do, it would be worth a serious look! But that one....just not sure it's worth the hassle with the digital controller/phase converter. But this makes me wonder about something else. I wonder why you couldn't buy a 3 phase industrial pump and a free-standing phase converter? I know a phase converter for 1hp will run you around $400, but maybe you could buy a 3 phase 1hp pump cheap enough to make it worth while? I don't know anything about this stuff anymore (even though I have an associates degree in Electronic engineering, from 18 years ago). 3-phase is a lot more durable and cheaper to operate. It makes me curious!

[Will]

Me too, and I don't even have a degree in anything useful. I'm just a lazy soldier/philosopher with a deep interest in being happy. And ponds.

Lim carries some 3-phase pumps, but they are rather expensive if I recall correctly. Expense is not really my concern, but doing the job in the best way is my concern. The DIY stuff really makes me happy, though.

[Carolinagirl]

I just checked Lim's web site...you are right! The Dragon II is available as a 3-phase. A one hp draws 4.77 amps and costs $759, which is $500 less than the money saver and you have a great reputation to back it. Of course you'd still have to invest in a phase converter so you could run it. A single phase 1 hp costs more at $859 but you'd need no converter. It draws more amps too....8.0. The single phase also moves more water (8150 gph) at a higher head too (6.93'). I think I'd be really tempted to get that single phase Lim pump. I have 3 Lim pumps in service now and they are so quiet you can't eve hear them running standing right next to them.

[Meganne]

I love my WLim pump

[Will]

Sounds good, I'm sure I could reduce the flow rate through venturis, valves, and other add ons like spitters, etc. It's the 8 Amps that I'm having trouble with, heck, I'm already in an all electric home. I sure do like my little 1/8 HP pump for power consumption, may have to look into a phase converter. BTW, since you are an electronic engineer, would the phase converter operate with 115 and 230V? If so, would 230V entail the more efficient operation of the pump?

[Carolinagirl]

I WAS an electronic engineer many years ago. I have not done that work for so long that I'd hate to begin to guess about phase converters. I do know that 220 pumps are cheaper to run than 110 pumps.

[Luvmypond]

I have an Aquascape 4500. It raised my electric bill $40. Don't know if that is good for a pump or bad. The pump was free, I've had it for about 4 or 5 years now. Never had a problem with it. And I have a smaller one I use for draining and water changes. My Little Giant (600 gph) I've had since I started the pond, probably about 9-10 years, is still running good. Funny, I never thought of amps and wattage when it came to getting a pump. Well, not till the electric bill kept going higher and higher ... lol

[koikeepr]

That's the thing about pumps. People buy them looking at the price of the initial outlay. They go to these crappy shops like Harbor Freight Tools and buy a dirt cheap pump and think they've got a bargain. Then they don't realize that the pump in question uses two, three or even four times the power of a more expensive, but great quality pond pump. So, every month the pump is costing them a fortune and within a year they've managed to spend more money than buying the good pump with low wattage. And at that point and beyond, the cheap pump will keep costing 'em more and more out of pocket.

You either pay more for the good pump upfront just once, or you keep paying for a crappy pump over and over again every month.

[Will]

:lol: Yeah. I did electronics for the Army, many years ago, too. I am intrigued by the 3-phase power idea, though, check this out: http://temcoindustrialpower.com/cart.html Seems like a good deal, comparing to other suppliers I've looked at. Haven't the foggiest how to wire it up, though, steep learning curve here. But, that would seem to go with the 3-phase Lim, wonder if a rheostat could be used to govern the power outpu on one of these rascals. I'll make my own money saver pump, by golly, can't be that hard.

Now I'd just have to figure out how to get 240V out to the pond. :Hmmm:

[Squidhead]

Now I'd just have to figure out how to get 240V out to the pond. :Hmmm:

E-tool and UF-B 12/3 wire or 10/3 depending on Amps. I would place it in conduit 18" below minimum.

[Carolinagirl]

This is a copy and paste from someone (RobF from Orlando) who knows what he's talking about with motors. From what I am gathering, it is cheaper to run a 3 phase pump but probably not cheap enough considering all the hassle and expense involved in converting regular household current to 3 phase.

"Yes a three phase application is a slightly different story, and talking about amperage for a “generic” electric motor can lead to confusion (as it has). While current flow is very important for the sizing of the wiring, you don’t actually pay for amps, you pay for power. And it is generally true that a three-phase motor is more efficient than a single-phase motor, and so consumes less power overall to do the job. But whatever the losses, both motors would apply the same amount of power to accelerate the same mass of water.

Single Phase Power consumption is just Amps x Volts. To calculate three-phase motor power consumption multiply amps by volts and then also by the square root of three (Watts = Amps x Volts x (sqrt 3). For example, if the motor is a three-phase and is drawing 2.6 amps at 250 volts, you have 2.6 x 250 x sqrt 3 (about 1.73) = 1124 watts. At 66% (746/1124) efficient this would be the 1hp and is believable. (If the voltage is 125 volts the power is 562 watts at 2.6 amps, this is short of the minimum 742 watts for 1hp).

From a power standpoint (as a very rough cut) if we say the three-phase is 66% efficient and the single-phase is 50% efficient and we say that 1KWH costs you $0.10, in the above example you would be paying $0.11 an hour to run your three-phase 1 hp pump. The single phase equivalent would cost you (32% more) or $0.14 per hour to operate. This is a difference of about $0.03 per hour. $0.03 x 24 x 365 = $262 per year. But to make any really meaningful comparisons it would be necessary to compare actual products with one another. Single-phase to three-phase converters to power and control motors do add a level of complexity but are mostly solid state and therefore durable. "

[Will]

Got a better idea. This would allow frequency variation (like a high tech rheostat), but also convert single phase to 3-phase. The money saver pump might have a timer built in, too, but this is what they're using, doubtless. There's our $500, but with the 3-phase Lim, we've got a choice pump with adjustable 3 phase conversion. Double hmmmm. Now my interest is highly piqued. The tech I spoke to at Temco did say that this was the biggest VFD that would perform the conversion to 3 phase, so I'd be limited to 3 HP or 10 A total draw. I could totally do that. But, a 2 HP Lim could be adjusted down to 1/2 HP power consumption.

http://temcoindustrialpower.com/products/Variable_Frequency_Drives/C80009.html

[Carolinagirl]

Very cool! I think you may be on to something. I have always said it makes no sense to buy combined appliances...like a TV/VCR combo...because if one goes out, you lose them both. Same with that moneysaver pump. this way, you have separate components for the same money plus the reliability of a W. Lim pump. VERY cool!!!

[Squidhead]

Also with the cost of copper the way it's been for a while now it will cost you another $50-200 depending on the length you have to go to the pond. I have saved wire from other projects that I removed or replaced. I actually moved it in boxes with me when moved to NC. I did not have 12/2 outside wire to run to the pond, so I had to buy it. Luckily the local Ace hardware had some that nobody probably bought from a few years back and it had old prices too. I got 100' for $40, it was $75 + at every place else. I guess it pays to get lost in hardware stores once in a while. I have been getting some awesome deals on clearance stuff. Anyway, good job on thinking outside the box Will! You never know what you can come up with when you try real hard.

[Carolinagirl]

Why can't you use the underground wire that is aluminum? That's what the power company uses to run power to the house underground. My wire going out to the pond is aluminim also. It's much cheaper than copper and seems to be the norm anymore for heavy supply wire. Then once you get into the panel box, you go with copper.

[Will]

That's a definite idea there, C. About 13 years ago, when my wife & I were first married, I was a carpenter, working for a general contractor. We rebuilt the Furman University student center for about 2 years, and I collected quite a few supplies from the old building as it was surgically demolished. One of those supplies was several hundred feet of heavy copper wire, which I've used over the years a lot. It is what powers my pond right now, just don't know if I have enough for my goldfish pond (which will use my existing pump), and this too.

The interesting thing about the two component system is that the VFD will be mounted inside the house, to control the pump outside. Not sure yet how I'll like that. I am, though, very excited by this project, and by the show this weekend. Might be a good time to talk with you about it, Cindy, and to get some other viewpoints, too.

Thanks for the compliment, Squid. Yeah, every once in a while it's good to get lost in a hardware store.