Winter Feeding

[Ponderer]

I have a question about Russel Peter's commenting on feeding down to 40 Degrees. How can someone with such great credentials make a statement like this ?

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?118261-Sleeping-koi...on-its-side&highlight=laying+on+side

[koikeepr]

Interesting thread. I've not heard of sleeping syndrome in koi older than 2 years, and this person is saying the fish has been in the mud for three years. Even in the second video where the person says the fish rights itself after 5 minutes, it still does not appear to be swimming properly. It still looks to have a balance issue, and it appears to wobble a bit too much when it swims.

Anyway, in answer to your direct question, I've seen folks unknowingly feed fish all winter because they did not educate themselves in the hobby and they never lost a fish. As we know, when fish hunker down for winter, their digestive systems slow down and if you continue to feed you risk food getting caught up in the system and potentially killing the fish. The operative term here is "potentially." It's sorta like gambling...you could win or you could lose. Russel has likely never lost a fish doing this, so he continues to gamble. That's not to say it can't happen one day, but he's willing to take the risk to continue to beef up the fish. He doesn't mention how much he feeds (I can only assume it isn't much), nor what kinda food (I can only assume it's a highly digestible feed).

There are lots of "experts" in hobbies/sports/etc that do all sorts of unorthodox things that us average keepers are often warned against. It's really about how strong your gut is for a potentially negative outcome and what your reason is for continuing to feed. I'm assuming Russel is trying to stretch out the time he can continue to feed and therefore grow his fish. Most us are not as experienced as Russel, nor willing to take a chance on losing our fish.

I've never lost a fish when I've stopped feeding after the water temps head south of 55. Since I'm happy with that statistic, I don't need to gamble with continuing to feed another month to put more girth on a fish. I'm not worried about the size of my fish, nor have a need to see them grow enormous. It's just not why I'm in the hobby. Everyone has their own goals for their fish, so they may do nontraditional things to achieve those goals.

[Coach]

It used to be, when we turned off the feeding it was because we believed the koi as well as the filter bacteria were going into a less active period and didn't need to be fed. lately some studies of bacteria indicated activity down to 41 degrees. So that kind of former rationale, no longer holds water.
I do think we need to look at the bigger picture of what can be accomplished during this period. Japan is a good place to start. After the harvests, koi are brought into a protected greenhouse and housed thru the period of cold to allow them fullest protection. Tosai and nisei (one and two yr olds) are usually kept in warm water and continued to be fed and grown. Sexually mature females ( 3 years and older) need to go thru a period of rest. otherwise feeding makes them use the protein to develop eggs and may infact cause them to become eggbound. So they are held at 52 F and allowed to reabsorb their protein needs thru the eggs they are carrying.
Let's advance furthur into the new year and spring. Koi are placed back out in the grow ponds in late april or early may. They are allowed to adjust to the pond for several weeks without being fed. Then a minimum amount of food is fed in May. Not much more of an increase because june is rainy season in japan. Serious feeding is done july thru october-november. So they accomplish in 5 months with proper feeding what we might think to attempt by feeding all year round. the reason why this is, is there is a time and place for evereything.
feeding constantly will not match what can be done during the correct season. Seasons are there for a reason. in a 24 hrs day why is it that we need 8 hrs of sleep? I can tell you if i don't let my bonsai experience winter and keep them in a greenhouse, in one season they have a mirade of problems and begin to loose their health. While i applaude innovative thinking, relooking at olde ways of doing things so we can do better, a good grasp of the cycle of life helps us to better understand where to push and where not to. As for me and my koi, we stop at 52 f and then i keep them off food for atleast a 6 to 8 week period. Toshio sakai taught me many years ago to use cooked barley flavored with garlic salt to reopen the digestive system after fasting and before the start of another feeding season. Keep in mind that moderate climates like in california and southern extremes where low temps are brief dips have different impact on koi in northern tiers that go into deep cold for longer periods. please take these kind of
considerations into effect as you reason thru new concepts to consider.

[Will]

The problem comes with someone with a lot of expertise says something like that, and people misinterpret what they are saying. It strikes me as a trifle irresponsible to advocate this type of practice from a position of authority, which certainly can cause the inexperienced reader to assume that they are safe doing this. I'm more with you, Lisa, I'm not experienced enough to take that sort of risk. In fact, I may never be that experienced ;-)

[koikeepr]

Roger that, Will.

I just think Russel is talking from years of experience and is not meaning any harm. He's just making a point and talking from his expert vantage point--not really thinking of the multitude of noobs and mere mortals who might be reading and potentially misinterpret and thusly lose fish by trying the same tactic. As a member of that site, it's not his job to worry about every level of reader, he's just a member of the site and speaking openly. No crime in that. [Think about it this way: It's no different than very well known pond sites insisting that one NEVER touch their filter and dump any of the waste, clean the pads, etc. I don't personally agree with this at all and do the opposite. But there are thousands of followers of that system who swear by it and it works for them and they claim they haven't lost a fish.] Russel is simply talking about his method that works for him.

That's why forums need great moderators, such as the ones we have here (thank you Kntry and CarolinaGirl!!)--it's their job to balance the comments a bit (if no other member has) and at least show another perspective, or perhaps call out that a particular thinking that is not for everyone to attempt.

When one is part of any forum, you have to recognize that there are all sorts of levels of passion and talent in one place. Some are knowledgeable enough to take certain risks and others are not. You have to figure out the characters you can align yourself with and follow their lead. And, of course, don't blindly believe everything you read or hear and do your own personal research. As Squidhead's tag line aptly says: Trust, but verify.

[WeWilly]

I feed till the water drops to 50 which it never does here in my pond.
That doesn't mean I feed every day but maybe a little twice a week.
Usually I fast them in January and February. So if any females have eggs they will absorb them.
As for Russ I don't think his water drops more than 50 degrees, so I don't think he feeds below 50.
I think his info comes from the breeders (Toshio Sakai) in Japan.

[Carolinagirl]

Part of the problem with feeding in cold water is the filter bacteria can't handle the load. The filter bacteria is less and less active and the water cools. At 40°, it is not working at all. So if someone keeps feeding their fish into winter, there is a good chance of an ammonia problem. MOST people have overstocked ponds that can't handle the ammonia load without active filtration.

[stroppy]

i cant really get my head around all this feeding, on all the bags of feed i buy it says to feed untill temps reach 41...is that just to sell more food ? i admit untill last year when i joined the pond forum i was feeding my fish, untill they stopped looking for food and in 8 years never lost a fish, now most will say thats just luck i dont know, but last year i stopped feeding at 50 and i lost all that years babies, slowly one by one they died, all the fully grown ones were fine and water was good no ammonia or nitrites ... my pond temp is now just below 50 fish are still active swimming nearer the bottom but looking for food, i have been giving them food just a little every other day i know from what you are all saying i shouldnt but we wont see spring here untill mid april, i think thats a lot later than most of you, thats around 5 months without food !! just seems to long for fish to survive ...

[Coach]

Sorry to hear you lost all your babies last year. Those koi that have to go thru their first winter have to be coddled. They are just not prepared to do so. Again as i mentioned in my previous post, it's why tosai are held in a greenhouse and heated by the breeders in japan. And yes they are fed quite heavily to command good prices come next spring.

kudos to our mods for being so knowledgeable. :)

[koikeepr]

Stroppy, my fish basically go 4 months without food.

[Squidhead]

Do they go 4 months without food? Or, do they go go 4 months without you feeding them commercial Koi Food? It seems to me that what the "experts" are saying is to back off the heavy feeding durring the cold months. You can easily monitor your bacteria status if your fish are still eating over cold months by testing for water parameters. Since most don't do this, it's easier to just say don't feed at all.

[koikeepr]

Yes, to clarify they go 4 months without me feeding them. I still have a very nice coating of algae on my walls and I can see them grazing--so they are still "eating" something.

[chris]

right now my pond is about 45 and the fish are still eating i feed them every other day.last week i did a water change and i vaced out the pond should i stop feeding them??
if they are hungey i dont wanna starve them i have 4 big gold fish and 12 baby feeders i plan on doing a water change one more time if i get a chance plus when the water gets below 39 they stop eating anyways

[koikeepr]

If it were my pond, I would stop feeding them. But everyone does what they feel is right for their situation ultimately.

[NancyM]

My fish lose interest in food at 52 degrees. I've monitored this for three years, and like clockwork, 52 degrees is the magic number with them. We're still well above that right now, though, hovering around 60 at the moment, so the fish are still getting fed, albeit half-rations. This is the longest they've ever been fed into the winter season. They still meet me at the edge of the pond every morning, mouths wide open. I'm going to miss that when cold weather hits.:sad0049:

[koikeepr]

I haven't fed the fish in about a month and the sieve is still full of poop every day that I clean out. That tells me that they are still eating algae and whatever else they can find. The poop is greenish/black, which is another indication of algae being eaten. I would have thought there system would be long empty by now if they were not eating something.

[Will]

I can attest to that, she's still getting a healthy poop load in her sieve - enough to do any further convincing I needed that I need one of those doohickeys myself.

[Peppy]

Algae creates a lot of manure! Much more than any food I've fed. When the Shubunkins start eating algae, the bottom needs cleaned more frequently.

I fed my koi about 1/2 ounce a day here and there over the last few weeks and I still have to clean the filters so I guess they're eating algae too because there's algae in the priming pot now and there wasn't before and the backwash water is tinted green instead of brown. I take it this is from algae floating around because they're eating it and tearing it loose.

[koikeepr]

Since algae is natural, it just breaks down really easily in their system--so lots of poop.

Will, when you get the sieve, you will love it. When you see that load on the sieve plate on a daily basis you realize the sheer amount of poop that would be in your water column were it not for this fantastical poop catcher.

[Squidhead]

I may add a sieve in the system too. One rebuild is to increase the size of the pipe going into my stock tank. I have 3" from the BD to about 2' from the stock tank, then I reduce to 2'. Problem is if I get leaves or something in there then my flow is reduced drasticly. I think the stuff gets clogged at the 2" transition. If I chop out that section and put a sieve, then the 2" stock tank input should be adequate. I don't have room for a commercial sieve so it will have to be a DIY version. I don't think it will be as "fancy" as the one you get commercially with a floating screen, but with my sized pond and a good design to prevent an overflow, it should do the trick.

I guess all the fiber in the algae diet make for a good cleaned out and flushed "system" . Howdy Hooooooooooooo........................
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh228/Squidhead_67/Mrhinky.jpg

[koikeepr]

Isn't your skimmer picking up your leaves before they sink?

[Squidhead]

For the most part, yes. But towards the end of the summer when all the leaves dried out from no rain, then a big wind or rain storm broke out the skimmer would fill up pretty quickly, then stop working effectively. I would still get other twigs and debris in there besides leaves. Then theres the poop factor. I can get rid of it daily without tearing down my filter or flushing it.

[koikeepr]

That was my one concern for you with that DIY skimmer. I really just never feel that DIY'ing larger equipment (i.e., skimmers, sieves) is ever worthwhile. A filter or a shower is one thing, but I don't see the benefit in DIY'ing mechanics that have moving parts. I have a zillion trees and my savio has never failed to catch 'em all. The most complaints I hear is of DIY'ed skimmers not being as effective. Most folks end up removing 'em and ultimately go with a store bought.

In our neck of the woods, you've got to have that pond netted by October 1st. You can't get around it no matter how big your pipes are. You've got that big open field across the street from your home, so you've got a big wind factor in place from that direction. I know it ain't pretty to have a net on, but it is the one thing that is effective.

Having just finished your pond, I'm sure you wanted to enjoy it as long as you could uncovered. But, there is a big downside to not throwing a net over it as the fall kicks in.

[Peppy]

And oak leaves are poisonous to koi. I guess a few are okay but wouldn't want too many laying in the water excreting that oak leaf tannin.

[chris]

yesterday on nov 24, it was 55 here so i did a water change and i gave the fish a little food. i might ween them off from now on but i dont think i have any algae if i do i cant see it.because i vaced the pond really good 2 weeks ago. i have allways feed them tillwater down to 39 and never lost a fish. but last year i closed the pond early
and stoped feeding them and my water went crazy and all most all of them died,,so i guess the algae will grow back?? i will keep an eye on them all i have is gold fish no koi

also my fish go with out eating from dec to march
but i can see them swiming and laying low at the bottom of the pond

[koikeepr]

My water temp is now up close to 56 since I put my solar cover on. Out of sheer curiosity, I threw a few pellets in to see what would happen and watched for about 5 or so minutes. They were not interested. I guess mostly because they've not eaten a pellet for about 4 weeks now.

[Ponderer]

thats amazing! My water temp is 56 and They act like piranhas over the Dainichi All-Season and Koi Excellence Wheat Germ. I haven't had a four week lapse in feeding though, it's unseasonably warm here in Murfreesboro, Tennessee.

[Ponderer]

Lisa, I mentioned to my wife about your 56 degrees and disinterested fish. I think it's Dr Johnson that states "when they have been without food for two weeks or more they won't show an interest on a temporary warm up". He further states that they should not be offered food when it warms above 50 only for a few days. That explains why my fish (my wife's really) are still hungry and yours aren't, she hasn't had a stretch of more than a couple of days not being able to feed them.

[koikeepr]

You comments are correct. Since I have stopped feeding, they are not looking. They are continuing to eat on their own--primarily algae--as I can still find lots of greenish poop on the sieve plate. A lot. Before I put the solar cover on, I could still see them grazing the walls for algae. They also probably couldn't even see the pellets, as they were really small and only 3 or 4.

Here in Charlotte, the weather has been wackily warm in the afternoons as well. I literally saw people at the store today shopping in shorts, sun dresses and tank tops. I get the feeling a cold snap is coming and it's going to snap these people back to a proper wardrobe. LOL!

[Will]

Yeah, still amassing material for the winter projects. Been researching airlifts, and combo geyser/airlift hybrids a lot, really thinking about doing my next pond with a redesigned airlift section. I truly believe I can get a few feet of head out of one with an irregular design. But, the sieve is a must.

Lisa, I've got some questions for you re your aqua art, I'll PM before ordering anything.

[koikeepr]

I welcome your queries, Will.

[chris]

ok i did a water test and the Ammonia was good . i did stop feeding them for the rest of the year till spring. i mom allways feed them and she told me she stoped feeding them after
halloween. so this week we will have a 50 degree day and i will do one more water change.

[Peppy]

I fed the last 1/2 ounce last week. Water was 39 today.

[stroppy]

arctic weather here in the UK snow over much of the country, temps here down to minus 2 !!! pond water down to 5 celsius thats about 28 fahrenheit. we only had a light falling of snow but more to come !!! cant believe its only November. its going to be a very hard winter for the fish and all the wildlife here i think

[koikeepr]

Wow! That's early. It's actually been frigid here as well the last day or two, too. I wish the Northerners would quit sending their cold air down here!

The pond was at 56F last week and then suddenly plunged to 49F overnight. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

[Peppy]

Stroppy, it was 22 degrees farenheit here this morning (-5 celsius). No snow yet. Sorry you're getting blasted already.

Your pond water of 5 celsius translates to 41 farenheit.

My pond water is 39 farenheit or 3.8 celsius.

Is this abnormally cold weather for you there?

Koikeepr, we'll quit sending cold air down there if you'll agree to send warm air up here, LOL.

[stroppy]

yes its much colder than normal here peppy aparrently its winds blowing in from the arctic, but i guess we are luckier than you .. we dont normally get weather like this till way after christmas

[NewToKoi]

In my pond in San Jose, it has been pretty cold for the past week or so. I was feedign the fish till the temps were 52-54 but the past few week the temp is around 44 so I have stopped feeding them every day. I'll do 10-12 pellets every 2 days and see if the fish come up to eat.

Hopefully the temps come back up again in the next few days.

[Peppy]

temps were 52-54 but the past few week

:nana::Whatever::lol::giggle:

[Sarge]

I havent read Russell's thread, but I do agree that his thoughts are based upon his experience and not meant in malice. That said, I do not feed under 50 degrees (constant). Stopped feeding about three weeks back and will not feed again until early March. Now, that does not mean that my girls wont eat - plenty of algae to keep them from starving. The good of it is that I can do less water changes in the winter - don't have to worry about overloading the filters - dont need to worry about infection (not overstocked). The bad of it is 'if' I was still showing I would be behind the powercurve come Spring with some pretty dull and skinny girls - but alas, my dayz of showing are behind me (besides showing em off in photos and to friends who stop by)

[Kntry]

I have cut feeding way back. I'm only feeding about 2 times a week. Our temps have been in the high 20's, low 30's at night and 40-50's during the day. The mud pond temp was 56° Sunday before the weather got really bad. I'll continue feeding like this through December and stop feeding altogether at the end of the month through the end of February.

Tim, you wouldn't be behind the curve because most everyone stops feeding for the winter.

I bet your girls are big now.

[Sarge]

I have cut feeding way back. I'm only feeding about 2 times a week. Our temps have been in the high 20's, low 30's at night and 40-50's during the day. The mud pond temp was 56° Sunday before the weather got really bad. I'll continue feeding like this through December and stop feeding altogether at the end of the month through the end of February.

Tim, you wouldn't be behind the curve because most everyone stops feeding for the winter.

I bet your girls are big now.

Not everyone - just us country folk! Never did get me a heater! I dont think them girls have grown much but then again I see them every day. Did not get around to measuring them this year.

[koikeepr]

What's caused you stop showing, Sarge? I'm always interested in such motivation when someone changes their direction in a hobby. Showing seems to be such an addiction for those that are involved it--but at the same I witness a lot of frustration on behalf of these folks, too, due to the competitive nature of it all (as with any such "sport".)

[Sarge]

Certainly a competitive sport if you will and not one for the faint of heart. I, like a few others here bought a fish at a show and entered it - won a ribbon and got the bug. I don't like losing and while you hear the comments that it is all about the koi, and I believe it should be - it really turns out to be all about the competition between owners, especially in the major categories. I learned alot in my brief stint and have some very fond memories but in the end I will summize that is simply was not my cup of tea.

Now days I enjoy sitting out back with the wife or some friends and enjoying my girls or going to another hobbiest home. Not only is this more relaxing for me, it costs alot less :)

[koikeepr]

Sarge, your comments remind remind me of exactly why I don't show fish. I'm just not into the whole competitive/political aspect of this or any hobby. I don't like to stress over a hobby, I just want to enjoy it.

It doesn't make me want a great fish any less--even if the only person seeing it is just me with a glass of wine sitting at the pond edge. I guess I push myself to find nicer and nicer and fish (within my limited pocketbook), and try to improve upon my herd each year. So, in essence, I am in competition with myself solely.

I don't behoove anyone for showing or entering such competitions of any sport--as I would imagine the feeling of winning and competing must give one a great charge (as do the bragging rights, I would expect). If that's your thing--more power to you!

For me personally, I just prefer to stick to the simpler aspects of koi keeping. I'm always in awe of those that do manage to take it further.

[Meganne]

I have not shown but am considering it. the idea of traveling with your favorite fish and the risks is a little scary.

but now I love going to shows. I have only been to a few but it is a wonderful learning exsperiance. and you get to put some faces to folks you have met on line! if you are within a few hours or so to a show it is well worth it to get there.
lots of nice fish in one place....sweet!