Goldfish Genealogy Chart: Great if You're Interested in Breeding

[koikeepr]

Here is a very old (in fact antique) Japanese chart of goldfish and their lineage. If any of you are interested in breeding goldfish, you can take a look at it to know which type of goldfish you'd need to breed together to produce a specific variety. There are many breeds here that don't even exist any more. Perhaps someone would be interested in bringing back a lost breed!

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu310/lfreem2/goldfishchart-1.jpg

[AngiR]

Very nice! I love antiques! I will have to try breeding some when I get a larger pond!

[digginponds]

nice thread.I'd love to bring back some ole genes.The mutli tails are always a plus,but I find them not so hardy outdoors

[Ponderer]

Where have all the canary yellow comets & goldfish gone?

[PaNancy]

Where have all the canary yellow comets & goldfish gone?

I'd sure like to know that. I LOVE the yellow Yamabuki's but my ponds are too small for koi. They would be a nice alternative.

[Luvmypond]

I just seen this. Is that how you spell (shubunkin) ? ha ha That's funny. Never knew. The fish on the chart are really pretty. Wish I had some of them, other than the Syubunkin. I did get a yellow Koi, it changed color. Looks like a copper color now. Great chart !!

[koikeepr]

It is shubunkin, yes!

[Peppy]

I'd like one of those Tetuonaga if it's black. I wonder if it's genetically possible to breed a sarassa comet with something black and come up with a showa or sanke pattern for the small pond people.

I bought a shubunkin/oranda mix once and the red was very red. It looked like a shubunkin with a partially formed red oranda cap. It made me a couple nice babies that I still have. Last winter was the first time I ever lost shubunkins in the winter and he was one of them. He was only 8 years old.

[koikeepr]

I would be a cool experiment to try. You'd need to find a black goldfish that is pond hardy to start with I would imagine. Once you start getting into oranda you are talking about a tropical and in winter the offspring might not survive. Dunno...

[Peppy]

That shubunkin/oranda mix spent all 8 years outside. He had a long body like a shubunkin and very bright pretty blue-the bluest I've ever seen a shubunkin--but with that partially formed red cap on his head.

Maybe a black demekin could help in the mix. I can't believe nobody's tried. It must not work.

[koikeepr]

yes, you'd need a true black fish....give it a whirl, Peppy!

[Peppy]

I've wanted to for quite some time but life and work keeps getting in the way. And now I'm thinking hard on a new pond done right from the getgo.

I wonder if some of those varieties are still around somewhere. Ki Utsuri were brought back but I guess that's because they're produced from crossing two other varieties that are still around.

[koikeepr]

Well, I have the watonai on this chart, which were brought back by Steve from Rain Garden in Hawaii a few years ago. He saw this very chart and decided to see if he could revive the breed. So, he did as the chart said and crossed the Ryunkin with the Wakin and got the long fins. He said he started by using a very good quality ryunkin with a very high back, and that the watonai looked terrible. And then he used a very mediocre looking ryunkin, and the spawn looked great. In Japan, watonai are very common--basically the equivalent of a comet here in the states. I think Steve has managed to bring back a few of the fish on the chart. I wouldn't be surprised if he has some of these breeds in black.

You can check out his website: http://www.raingarden.us/

Here's one watonai he's showing now that appears to have some koi like pattern: http://www.raingarden.us/5585d.JPG. He must be trying to do what you're describing because he didn't have any with this type of pattern when I bought mine 3 years ago. I don't remember there being any black, otherwise I would have bought them. LOL!

[Peppy]

OH NO! Why did you have to post that link? Now I'm in love with his fish. Dang it all anyway. I have to build a new pond for goldfish or something. I must have some of those different varieties.

I eventually had tropical fish in my tank but I started with short bodied goldfish and like the tank better with them in it. They have personalities and unlike tropicals, they all look different.

He's doing some really nice breeding!

[Will]

Breeding. I'm gaining knowledge here, but I am SO not ready for that. Thought I was doing really well when I found 3 fish in the pond that I didn't buy. One looks kind of comet like, but is black. Other two are koi. My biggest is only 6" now, most were around 3" when these 2 emerged. Can they really breed this early?

[koikeepr]

sure they can. The comet that is black now will likely be turning orange toward next year...

[Peppy]

Peace, congratulations on baby koi because usually the goldfish eat the koi eggs. How did you know they're koi? Can you see the barbels?

Breeding doesn't have to be done on the scale of the breeders. You don't have to hatch all the eggs is what I'm saying. I plan to do it again but on a very small scale again.

Last year I threw some hyacinths in the pond and the koi spawned on them so I took them out and hatched them. You could throw a bunch of hyacinths in (after debugging them say with peroxide or something) but not hatch all the eggs so you aren't overwhelmed. It's a nice experience.

I kept two of the babies and gave the others away. They're 10-11 inches now. Not great growth but they overwintered in a 300 gallon stock tank outside and I have no mud pond so I don't think that was too bad for the situation.

[cauzeneffeckt]

those yellow comets that the Hawaiian Breeder has are absolutely awesome.. would love one

[Will]

Peppy, sorry for the wait here. They are pretty obviously koi, with the shape and markings of koi, plus the almost armlike quality of the pectoral fins (very sturdy and articulate), where the pectoral fins of goldfish this size are diaphanous.